power, or agility and speed. In your opinion, which is more desirable?

[Kenlee25]

Now all martial artists know that a combination of the two ( combined with technique ) is the ideal of all ideals, but the sheer fact of the matter is that most people tend to lean towards one or the other subconsciously. You train hard, you find your own style, and because of either your body shape/size or the particular art in which you practice ( wing chun will teach you speed > power for example while muay thai will teach you power > speed ) you begin to lean towards a particular direction.

With a lean athletic build, 5 foot 7 inches ( only 18, so not done with puberty yet, I pray to god that I grow ), and have generally small easy to move body parts, it was obvious that I would go for speed over power myself.

But what do you think, if either, is the more desirable trait? Execution of technique is not a variable here. Just assume in this scenario, that your actual technique/skill is perfect.

 

[WC_lun]

I have to take exception with the statement, " wing chun will teach you speed > power for example..." This is not an accurate description of Wing Chun training as I know it. Wing Chun teaches structural integrity in all things which for the untrained will mimic power. It also equally trains superior position and angles, which for the untrained would mimic power to some degree and speed to a greater degree. It does NOT focus on either speed or power as they are physical attributes and each person has varying degrees of each. We will train to increase those attributes, but never is the attribute the focus of training, but rather the concepts and principles built within the system.

In my opinion, if a technique is "perfect" then it has adequete speed and power to accomplish the job it is being used for, therefore rendering the question of which is more importat moot.

 

[Kenlee25]

I have to take exception with the statement, " wing chun will teach you speed > power for example..." This is not an accurate description of Wing Chun training as I know it. Wing Chun teaches structural integrity in all things which for the untrained will mimic power. It also equally trains superior position and angles, which for the untrained would mimic power to some degree and speed to a greater degree. It does NOT focus on either speed or power as they are physical attributes and each person has varying degrees of each. We will train to increase those attributes, but never is the attribute the focus of training, but rather the concepts and principles built within the system.

In my opinion, if a technique is "perfect" then it has adequete speed and power to accomplish the job it is being used for, therefore rendering the question of which is more importat moot.

If I remember correctly, Wing chun was created by a woman, and was designed specifically so that a smaller fighter could defeat the larger stronger fighter. A wing chun chain punch ( a move very signature to that style ) does less damage per strike, but you can do a lot more of them in the same time. That's really what I meant. The smaller opponent won't overpower the other opponent but, unless I am wrong, you generally do act with more speed and flow ( especially with your hands ) than say, a karate, taekwondo or muay thai fighter. That's what I meant.

Hmmm, I believe that one can have perfect technique, but less power or speed in said technique than another person.

 

[K-man]

The problem is that, as we get older, the speed and power start to diminish. Now we start to rely on smarter, not harder or faster. This is why I started aikido training in my late 50s. I still have strength but I am learning to replace it with 'soft'. Not only that, I have incorporated a lot of it into my karate so my Goju is now genuinely hard and soft. As WC said, structural integrity plays a big part. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

Im into Power.

Thats about all I have to say about it.

 

[Kenlee25]

The problem is that, as we get older, the speed and power start to diminish. Now we start to rely on smarter, not harder or faster. This is why I started aikido training in my late 50s. I still have strength but I am learning to replace it with 'soft'. Not only that, I have incorporated a lot of it into my karate so my Goju is now genuinely hard and soft. As WC said, structural integrity plays a big part. :asian:

How old are you K-man? I've actually been dying to know.

Aikido seems like an amazing art, but I'm not sure I could get into it in my current state, but definitely something I would look into later down the line. Krav also claims it is a system usuable by anyone and everyone, regardless of age etc etc. So, I guess I'll be looking into those two as I get older.

 

[Buka]

Power, speed or agility....they're all nice. But in striking, it's all about your timing. A man with better timing will beat a man with less timing, no matter his speed, power or agility. (within reason, of course)

 

[MLA9741]

I think it is beneficial to have an even mixture of both. Power: greater damage per blow, speed: rapid strikes with heavy power, agility: you can hit and run, or dodge if your opponent counters. I am on the bigger side, so I excel in powerful strikes and surprisingly I have quick hands and quick feet. The only thing I lack and currently trying to improve is my agility (dodging, sliding, reaction time). In a few months (hopefully), I will be balanced in all areas.

 

[WC_lun]

I believe your view of Wing Chun is not valid and perhaps based on misinformation.

The Ng Wing Chun legend is just that, a legend. It is starting to become accepted more likely it is just a myth. What is known is Wing Chun was created in the mid-1600's. It was used to train soldiers to proficency quicker than the animal systems taught at that time. The soldiers trained were to be rebels against the Manchu government in place, so secrecy was of great importance. There are many more details that have been discoverd, but this is the bare bones.

The signiture chain punch that you refer to is not what most people believe it is. For most people outside of a quality Wing Chun system do not even do it correctly. The elbows are out of alignment, robbing the power of the punches. The way it is practiced by most people it is a TRAINING excercise. In a fight, it is not used as seen by most people. The reason is because if the alignment is correct, and Wing Chun principles are followed, you will effect your opponent with the first contact. In some cases chain punching might be the proper tool to follow with, but in most cases the range has changed so that is not the correct tool. Chain punches are great for training to continue following up until the threat is dealt with.

Good Wing Chun teaches that anytime you make contact with your opponent, you effect his structure, making him go into recovery mode, or ending the confrontation all together. If you must continue, you keep your opponent trying to recover, until your opponent is no longer a threat, then you move on. Like many Chinese martial arts, the power is relaxed until delivered. If the structure is in proper alignment, all forward energy from the entire body is delivered into the point of contact. This keeps the power delivery smooth and potent, while keeping muscle tension from slowing down the delivery. Efficiency is also stressed, meaning a good Wing Chun player will do more with less movement, giving the illusion of great speed. Does this sound like a system that would rely on speed in the stead of applied power?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it annoys me a bit when the art I practice is misrepresented. I know it is not malicious, but it is still incorrect. It also gives the wrong impression to people who do not know any better about Wing Chun. It is designed to deliver very powerful strikes, when strikes are the techniques chosen. The hardest I've been hit on a consistant basis is in my Wing Chun training. Keep in mind that I have done some western boxing and many years in animal styles, including Tiger and Dragon, systems known for thier power generation. If you cannot see the power in Wing Chun, then you do not yet know what you are looking at, or you are viewing inferior Wing Chun.

 

[K-man]

How old are you K-man? I've actually been dying to know.

Aikido seems like an amazing art, but I'm not sure I could get into it in my current state, but definitely something I would look into later down the line. Krav also claims it is a system usuable by anyone and everyone, regardless of age etc etc. So, I guess I'll be looking into those two as I get older.

Put it. This way. It's a bit of a secret, just between you and me, right? Let's just say I'm a bit younger than Al Gore and a bit older than Cat Stevens. Mmmmm! Keep that to yourself!

 

[Jenna]

How old are you K-man? I've actually been dying to know.

Aikido seems like an amazing art, but I'm not sure I could get into it in my current state, but definitely something I would look into later down the line. Krav also claims it is a system usuable by anyone and everyone, regardless of age etc etc. So, I guess I'll be looking into those two as I get older.

What is your 'current state' that you could not get into Aikido?

 

[Jenna]

Power, speed or agility....they're all nice. But in striking, it's all about your timing. A man with better timing will beat a man with less timing, no matter his speed, power or agility. (within reason, of course)

QFT

Without good sense of TIMING -including the ability to interpret and work off rhythm- all the other factors will be rendered partially ineffective.

I would also add ACCURACY into the set of core skills that need to be worked on BEFORE developing either power OR speed. If one cannot target accurately then the worth of power and speed in offence is greatly diminished. Likewise if one cannot with some accuracy predetermine direction of incoming strikes then one may move inadvertently into further strikes.

Anyways out of those three: power, speed or agility, AGILITY -that is, proper footwork, movement and fitness- is #1. However the caveat is that it is only #1 ALONG WITH timing and accuracy. IMO

 

[MLA9741]

QFT

Without good sense of TIMING -including the ability to interpret and work off rhythm- all the other factors will be rendered partially ineffective.

I would also add ACCURACY into the set of core skills that need to be worked on BEFORE developing either power OR speed. If one cannot target accurately then the worth of power and speed in offence is greatly diminished. Likewise if one cannot with some accuracy predetermine direction of incoming strikes then one may move inadvertently into further strikes.

Anyways out of those three: power, speed or agility, AGILITY -that is, proper footwork, movement and fitness- is #1. However the caveat is that it is only #1 ALONG WITH timing and accuracy. IMO

What I bolded are as important as power and speed, IMHO. I think fitness, endurance, or whatever you want to call it, is most important. primarily due to the fact that if you're able to outlast your opponent and make him winded, you will most likely come out on top. Whether it be TKD, Kendo, Wrestling, BJJ, the person with the best mix of timing, accuracy, agility, power, speed, and most importantly, endurance, will win most of the time.

 

[K-man]

Without good sense of TIMING -including the ability to interpret and work off rhythm- all the other factors will be rendered partially ineffective.

Is this what I would call 'broken timing'?

 

[KempoGuy06]

at 6'3" and 243lbs i have size and power for days. I am not quick on my feet but i have very quick hands and a long reach, coupled with my natural strength i aggravate a lot of people when i spar with them.

I lack agility and speed, but what i lack most of all is stamina. Stamina is a very important concept that few people look at. Yes we build stamina over time especially when we first jump into a new art but the rate at which stamina increases starts to drop as we get used to the art. As we settle in and get more comfortable so does our body which is not a bad thing but it also decreases that amount of stamina we gain. You could have power or speed or agility for days but if you are lacking proper stamina those may become useless when placed in a situation where you have to avoid and/or help multiple people.

Im not discounting speed, agility or power, those three are very important as well, but stamina needs to added to that equation.

example: you are cornered by 3 people, you are larger then all of them but they have you out numbered. Their combined strength is greater than yours but you are trained and they are not (hypothetical). You both have your advantages. your natural strength and the speed you have gained from training will help you out against one and least 2 of the attackers but facing the 3rd your stamina will decrease along with it your strength and speed. You may make it out you may not.

that is a dire situation example but it works all the same.

train everything, work on everything. for every hour you spend training do sprints. Do sprints and then have someone make you run through you SD techs, it might not be pretty. Run so hard that you are gasping for air and you have a stitch in your side and then train.

I might not be faster or my agile than my attacker/s but i will be able to outlast them if the need arises. Plus its fun to spar and watch my partner look at me in exasperation because they feel i should tired out, always a bonus

just my .02

B

 

[Gemini]

Power, speed or agility....they're all nice. But in striking, it's all about your timing. A man with better timing will beat a man with less timing, no matter his speed, power or agility. (within reason, of course)

Without good sense of TIMING -including the ability to interpret and work off rhythm- all the other factors will be rendered partially ineffective.

All are important, but timing is the trump card. There's nothing more frustrating than being matched with some one you're bigger, stronger and faster than, yet continually finding yourself caught in their rhythm, thereby subjected to their timing and always slightly out of phase of your own. All the speed and power is rendered useless. Is there a limit to this? Of course, but to the OP, it's the single most important attribute IMO.

 

[MJS]

Now all martial artists know that a combination of the two ( combined with technique ) is the ideal of all ideals, but the sheer fact of the matter is that most people tend to lean towards one or the other subconsciously. You train hard, you find your own style, and because of either your body shape/size or the particular art in which you practice ( wing chun will teach you speed > power for example while muay thai will teach you power > speed ) you begin to lean towards a particular direction.

With a lean athletic build, 5 foot 7 inches ( only 18, so not done with puberty yet, I pray to god that I grow ), and have generally small easy to move body parts, it was obvious that I would go for speed over power myself.

But what do you think, if either, is the more desirable trait? Execution of technique is not a variable here. Just assume in this scenario, that your actual technique/skill is perfect.

Well, IMO, as you said, a mix of at least 2 is the ideal and in that case, I'd pick power and speed. However, if we're just limiting it to 1, well I'd pick power over speed. Alot of the time, we tend to see people blasting thru stuff, which is fine, however, IMO, its not going to matter how fast you are, if your power is lacking. I'd rather have someone throwing some hard bombs, that're going to have an effect, rather than 20 strikes in 3 secs. that're going to feel like a fly landing on you...LOL!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Like so many things, I think the answer is "it depends.."

There is, I think, a fair bit of overlap in the terms. For example, given equal strength, the faster strike will have more power. But with poor timing, powerful strikes won't be effective, so...

You have to learn what your strengths are, and train to maximize those strengths while minimizing your weaknesses.

 

[WingChunIan]

Now all martial artists know that a combination of the two ( combined with technique ) is the ideal of all ideals, but the sheer fact of the matter is that most people tend to lean towards one or the other subconsciously. You train hard, you find your own style, and because of either your body shape/size or the particular art in which you practice ( wing chun will teach you speed > power for example while muay thai will teach you power > speed ) you begin to lean towards a particular direction.

With a lean athletic build, 5 foot 7 inches ( only 18, so not done with puberty yet, I pray to god that I grow ), and have generally small easy to move body parts, it was obvious that I would go for speed over power myself.

But what do you think, if either, is the more desirable trait? Execution of technique is not a variable here. Just assume in this scenario, that your actual technique/skill is perfect.

How can you separate power and speed? Power in striking is only and can only ever be a product of mass and velocity (in striking we are talking about impact and transfer of energy or 1/2Mvv, in throwing or pushing we are talking about force or Ma with factors such as leverage playing a huge part). For the same mass the faster you hit the harder you hit, double your speed and you increase energy transfer by 4 times. Your analysis of MT and WC (having done both for many years) is slightly off. Both rely on speed the difference comes in comitment of mass. MT is happy to commit 100% of body mass into any one shot as the consequences of failure are limited - no strikes to the back, in WC the consequences of failure are much higher and therefore a compromise is drawn between commiting body weight and retaining defensive integrity. But here's the key doubling the body mass into a strike only doubles the power whereas doubling the speed has the effect of quadrupling the impact . There is often a philosophy difference in martial arts between the "one hit one kill" mentality associated with traditonal karate and the multiple strikes associated with styles like boxing and WC. The only real difference is in the way that you train and the results that you anticipate. All of the fights I've ever had using my WC were ended with a single blow (by me I should add before the comedians pipe up) but I always train on the assumption that it will take multiple shots and that my first shot may well not land at all. There is also a confusion between speed and mobility. By speed above I am talking about the speed of the shot not how quickly one moves in and out or around. being powerful is often mistakenly taken as opposite to being mobile because to be powerful one mostly needs to be rooted (or use gravity - ie jump or fall, or spinning to develop momentum) and to be rooted there can't be any points of flexion in the skeleton from the point of impact to the ground so being on the toes is out.
In a nutshell, train to hit as hard as you can so that you have one shot stopping power, practise hitting vulnerable bits so the amount of power you need is less, then assume that your hardest shot will do nothing and train to execute a dozen

 

[ATC]

Power, speed or agility....they're all nice. But in striking, it's all about your timing. A man with better timing will beat a man with less timing, no matter his speed, power or agility. (within reason, of course)

Ding. This is one of my major training points, TIMING! I mentioned this in another thread as well. When you have good timing people think you are fast. When you have good timing + good distance management people think you have speed and power. Now if you truly have speed+power+timing and distance then you are elite and deadly. Most that have speed never take the time to develop timing. They think they are so fast that they tend to rely on the speed too much. Those that have great power tend to have crappy distance as they want to just be as close to you as possible to smash you as hard as they can. It is always that middle person that is not to fast and not to strong that works on the timing and becomes the best artist. They tend to know that they are not that fast and don't have overwhelming power so they look for an edge that can suit them. They find it in reading and timing. Once you learn to read your timing sharpends. The people with the best timing can read and know how to setup people. Now this is for just pure sport by the way.

However if you are talking SD then I would lean to power. Why? Because you would tend to be close to your attacker and with proper technique and loads of power you can really do damage. Most attackers would be taken off guard by the fact that you know what you want to do and are doing it to their suprise. Then with the power it would really hurt them bad. Speed would not be that much of an advantage as in SD the person be fended off is most likely not ready for the defense and even the slowest person would be able to perform with enough speed.