Police brutality.

[sgtmac_46]

I could not view it on my Unix station. The page asked for a Win32 plugin to Firefox which was not installed on my platform. Since most already agreed it was fake, I hardly thought to expend the effort of installing new software to view.

I thought to instead make a course correction away from the prior thread drift and address the original topic from the first post. I had expected to draw more fire with the wording therein. No one very much took the bait. Nevertheless, I shall plow on with my usual followup rhetoric.

Actually no, I do not despise all uniformed persons...just a certain type of viewpoint, a flawed mentality all too prevalent in American culture. The one fallen prey to by certain individuals the moment they put on a uniform. And it is obvious, at least to me, that the uniformed civilian authorities take very small pains to screen that sort out after recruitment.

It has always seemed to me ironic that someone, anyone would hide behind an artificial group identity and pretend that mere clothes immune them from personal responsibility. They claim to be the group who is acting and not a person. It is as if karma could not see beyond their uniform. Were that to be the case then it should be the group who expects to receive retribution and no person among them take personal offence.

Ridiculous, isn't it? If the latter part is absurd then the former part is also. Officers are indeed responsible for the laws which they inforce and the policies by means of which they enforce them. In this there is no distinction between them and Nazi death camp guards except in the matter of degree.

The fact that the term "cop killer" exists at all in any sense distinct from "waitress killer" or "fireman killer" shows how far our culture has bought into a quite obviously flawed evaluation of human life. Ask not why a greater effort is made to capture a cop killer...ask rather why a lesser one is made on behalf of anyone else.

Such great effort is made to bring a 'cop killer' to justice because the police represent the executive arm of societies will. As such, it is tempting to believe that you can simply thwart societies will by killing it's representatives to escape. Society has determined that that mindset is unacceptable. They've also determined that anyone dangerous enough to decide to shoot a police officer to escape, is a particular danger to society as a whole. You may disagree with that point, but I think it's probably the majority view of the citizens of society.

As for the idea that police are somehow operating with carte blanche, and do certain things because they are hiding behind a 'uniform', I suppose you might find some officers for which that is true. It has, however, become a cliche that is not shown itself to true in the majority of cases in my experience.

For myself, I don't know how many times i've heard the phrase 'If you weren't hiding behind that badge and uniform'. The reality is that I myself am much nicer with a badge and uniform. The people pay me to be nice and respectful, and to pursue their will toward law and order in a certain manner. What many people who believe i'm simply hiding behind a badge and uniform fail to understand is that I tolerate behavior toward me on duty, in a way i'd never tolerate it off. They get to yell profanity and insults at me, and I don't take it personally because it is directed toward an institution.

 

[arnisador]

Murdering a LEO, judge, etc., is an attack on the system as well as on a person. Paying special attention to such crimes is merited.

 

[aplonis]

So then...you are in favor of making lesser efforts on behalf of non-uniformed citizenry? Do you, in fact, give less than 100% on a sliding scale based upon your evaluation of that individuals worth relative to a uniformed officer?

It can't be both ways. Either you do, or you don't. It seems that you do. Or at least you seem to say so.

 

[arnisador]

So then...you are in favor of making lesser efforts on behalf of non-uniformed citizenry?

Yes, there's no other way to read this. I am opposed to the investigation of homicides that do not involve police officers.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Yeah..the cops NEVER try to solve murders unless they involve cops.
Because the punishment is more severe for cop killers, it doesnt really follow that less than %100 is put into catching ALL murders. Theres some sort of logic error there.


Whatever
:feedtroll

 

[kelly keltner]

So then...you are in favor of making lesser efforts on behalf of non-uniformed citizenry? Do you, in fact, give less than 100% on a sliding scale based upon your evaluation of that individuals worth relative to a uniformed officer?

It can't be both ways. Either you do, or you don't. It seems that you do. Or at least you seem to say so.

I'm confused on this one, people are convicted every day for criminal activities every day that do not involve officers as victims.
So where are the stats that show other cases are neglected in favor of ones concerning peace officer's?

 

[sgtmac_46]

So then...you are in favor of making lesser efforts on behalf of non-uniformed citizenry? Do you, in fact, give less than 100% on a sliding scale based upon your evaluation of that individuals worth relative to a uniformed officer?

It can't be both ways. Either you do, or you don't. It seems that you do. Or at least you seem to say so.

There's obviously an issue you miss. If someone is going to take on the enforcement arm of society, with lethal force, they are a PARTICULAR threat to every member of society it's self. That is the rational used for making the murder of police, judges, etc, enhanced crimes. It in NO way makes other citizens 'worthless'. It, in FACT is designed to protect those citizens.

Again, ANYONE who is willing to shoot it out with an armed police officer, is willing to murder an average citizen without the slightest hesitation. Further, we add enchancements to other crimes as well. Hate crimes, for example. Also, murders as a result of a sex crime of kidnapping, likewise enhance penalties. In particular, there are laws that make any death as a direct result of a felony act, such as robbery, make everyone involved in the robbery guilty of 'murder' whether they pulled the trigger or not. Again, it's not 'just cops' that enhance charges for murder.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Than you need to do something about the BPD or get out of Boston....Read what the ACLU said about differences in police agencies. (its pretty much what I said a few pages back) And how to promote reform. What makes you think a constabulary is going to be staffed with prefect, zero mistake people? People are fallible... the solution is better hiring practices, better training, better supervision and better misconduct policy...in my experience theres more good cops than bad.

Mmmm being in England I've known nothing but a constabulary police force?! Or am I missing the point about constabulary here?! Does this have some other meaning apart from the constabularys that are here?

If so, whats the difference between a constabulary and the American police force?
Since Im currently studying a University course in Police Science, it would be nice to know, unless of course its really obvious that I've missed something here!

As for Police brutality, do you really think its the system that needs changing to combat this problem?
Correct me if Im wrong but is it not the indiviuals that commit this 'brutality' and therefore you should be combating the indiviuals or the reasons that the indiviuals (i.e the police officers) commit these acts, unless of course the reason is due to the system?!

As for news reports, especially over here, they are generally best taken with a pinch of salt, if any police know what its like to be scrutized, its from the media over here. They are never praised, they only seem to be recognised when an officer is killed, but as soon as somebody makes a mistake, be it minor or not, everything comes crashing down and hey wow, a nice big fat juicy story.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying police brutality doesnt happen, but the impression Im getting from Kevin Walker here, and I know your entitled to your own opinion by all means, but is simply that your coating all the police with the same brush, where ever they may be.
Sure, you have what you describe to be a ineffecient police force in your area but does that warrant you discregarding the thousands of men and women who risk their lives everyday for others?

Regards

 

[arnisador]

Police use excessive force, ER docs say

In a survey of a random sample of U.S. emergency physicians, virtually all said they believed that law enforcement officers use excessive force to arrest and detain suspects.

The sample included 315 respondents. While 99.8 percent believed excessive force is used, almost as many (97.8 percent) reported that they had managed cases that they suspected or that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.

 

[Guardian]

Police use excessive force, ER docs say

No doubt there are cases of it, but I just wonder how many of those ER docs ask the Officers what kind of force was used against them first requiring the officer to use more force to subdue the victim?

Interesting thought in my view.

 

[arnisador]

I agree. It's not clear how the physicians could know that it was excessive force. Still, I thought it was an interesting thing to note.

 

[seasoned]

Standard procedures, every citizen should know, and follow, when pulled over. When the lights go on behind you, pull over in a safe manor, with officer safety, and yours in mind. At this point, the officer does not know you, or what you are capable of doing. Without taking a lot of time, with your radio turned off, car in park, window down, both hands open, palms up, on steering wheel in plain sight, wait. Seems like a lot to do, but it can all be done with minimal time and movement. Do not lean down, gab for your license, or appear in any way to be looking for something. As the officer approaches your window, keep your eyes straight ahead, and speck when spoken to. When the officer specks, answer in a clear, precise, and polite manor without all the excuses for why he should not have pulled you over. At this point, the longer it takes you to find your appropriate paper work, the longer the officer has to stand out side your window watching you, and oncoming traffic. If you follow all the above, and you did not do something very stupid to be pulled over for, then he may issue you a warning. If during the above interaction you do, or say something to raise any concerns, and he feels threaten, this is where the problems start. The ticket is not the final verdict, and you will have your day in court. Nothing will be determined on the initial pullover except, ticket issued, or warning, but, it can definitely get a lot worse for you, if you don’t follow the above. The mistake people make, is in their thinking. They may think that the officer has a God complex, or is power hungry, but in reality, he or she just wants to feel safe, and make it home to their family. IMHO, have a nice day.

 

[Mark L]

Standard procedures, every citizen should know, and follow, when pulled over. When the lights go on behind you, pull over in a safe manor, with officer safety, and yours in mind. At this point, the officer does not know you, or what you are capable of doing. Without taking a lot of time, with your radio turned off, car in park, window down, both hands open, palms up, on steering wheel in plain sight, wait. Seems like a lot to do, but it can all be done with minimal time and movement. Do not lean down, gab for your license, or appear in any way to be looking for something. As the officer approaches your window, keep your eyes straight ahead, and speck when spoken to. When the officer specks, answer in a clear, precise, and polite manor without all the excuses for why he should not have pulled you over. At this point, the longer it takes you to find your appropriate paper work, the longer the officer has to stand out side your window watching you, and oncoming traffic. If you follow all the above, and you did not do something very stupid to be pulled over for, then he may issue you a warning. If during the above interaction you do, or say something to raise any concerns, and he feels threaten, this is where the problems start. The ticket is not the final verdict, and you will have your day in court. Nothing will be determined on the initial pullover except, ticket issued, or warning, but, it can definitely get a lot worse for you, if you don’t follow the above. The mistake people make, is in their thinking. They may think that the officer has a God complex, or is power hungry, but in reality, he or she just wants to feel safe, and make it home to their family. IMHO, have a nice day.

I think I understand the spirit and intent of what you're saying, but have to disagree (from my non-LEO perspective) with a few points: speaking only when spoken to and keeping my eyes straight ahead. First point, I have every right to politely greet and engage the officer as to the purpose of the stop. I am a citizen, with the associated rights. Second, I would never avert my eyes from someone, presumably a police officer, who is approaching my vehicle. The last time I was stopped was a very long time ago, at night, and the officer put lights in my rear and side view mirrors, and a big MagLite in my eyes. I couldn't tell if he was a cop or the Easter Bunny, and told him (very politely) that I wouldn't be rolling down my window or giving him anything until I could see who I was talking to. He adjusted the lighting, I cooperated fully, and thanked him for my warning. Also, I'm responsible for my own safety; the officer is responsible for his own safety (and mine, given that their mandate is to protect and serve ...)

That being said, engine off, interior light on, hands on the wheel, window positioned to afford communication is my reaction to being pulled over.

 

[arnisador]

I grab the wheel firmly with both hands high at the top (the few times I've been pulled over) but otherwise do as described above by seasoned! If I have a passenger in the car I ask them to place both hands on the dash as the LEO approaches. Asking for ID is always fair but I've only been stopped in daytime.

 

[Guardian]

I agree. It's not clear how the physicians could know that it was excessive force. Still, I thought it was an interesting thing to note.

I agree, interesting note indeed, because we both know, folks love their statistics no matter where they come from and I'm sure someone somewhere will use that statistic

 

[seasoned]

I think I understand the spirit and intent of what you're saying, but have to disagree (from my non-LEO perspective) with a few points: speaking only when spoken to and keeping my eyes straight ahead. First point, I have every right to politely greet and engage the officer as to the purpose of the stop. I am a citizen, with the associated rights. Second, I would never avert my eyes from someone, presumably a police officer, who is approaching my vehicle. The last time I was stopped was a very long time ago, at night, and the officer put lights in my rear and side view mirrors, and a big MagLite in my eyes. I couldn't tell if he was a cop or the Easter Bunny, and told him (very politely) that I wouldn't be rolling down my window or giving him anything until I could see who I was talking to. He adjusted the lighting, I cooperated fully, and thanked him for my warning. Also, I'm responsible for my own safety; the officer is responsible for his own safety (and mine, given that their mandate is to protect and serve ...)

That being said, engine off, interior light on, hands on the wheel, window positioned to afford communication is my reaction to being pulled over.

Thanks for the response. Generally, when the officer approaches your vehicle, he will do it apprehensively, coming no closer then the center post, or where the front and back window meet, so it is hard to see him without turning way around. It’s much easier to catch him in your rearview mirror and not distract him while he clears your back seat visually, making his job easier. Once you turn and start talking, you have taken his attention away. Once he visually sees no threat, back seat clear, hands in plain sight, he may approach your driver side window, but still slightly back, keeping his firearm out of reach. By the time he is at your window, he will have already asked you if you know why you are being stopped. At that time you should make eye contact, and answer truthfully and honestly, because like you said, it is your right as a citizen. By asking you this question, it gives him an opportunity to evaluate your speech and see your eyes, Whatever your answer is, he will at that time tell you why he pulled you over. At this time, he will ask for your license, registration and insurance card, or give you a warning, and you may be on your way. If you receive a ticket, this is not the time to argue, be polite and take it. You will have plenty of time in court to state your case to the judge.
Officer safety is a critical problem, when people cry police brutality. For your safety it is important that they feel safe. You may look at something as an inconvenience, like lights in your eyes, but everything they do is for a reason. And by the way, any good citizen, will consider their own safety, as well as officer safety while interacting.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Police use excessive force, ER docs say

Thanks for bringing this little ditty to our attention arnisador.......my comment on this article....

:BSmeter::bs:

So....medical doctors are now experts on 'reasonable' versus 'excessive force'? My question is what the hell do they think they know about it? Yeah, they may observe an injury, but they know JACK about the circumstances surrounding that injury, or what the suspect was doing to receive that injury.......so how can ER docs even MAKE the statement 'Police use excessive force'? IT'S DISHONEST AT BEST!


There is ZERO way that someone can look at an injury, and then conclude based solely on the injury, WITHOUT knowing any other details of the incident, whether or not it was 'Police Brutality'.

I like THIS little GEM!

that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.

So the he SAID the cops beat him.....i've NEVER taken a drunken, drugged up moron to the ER that didn't SWEAR he was BEATEN, RAPED, SODOMIZED and BRUTALIZED by the police to ANYONE THAT WOULD LISTEN! But a doctor is a BIGGER moron if he actually believes what some crackhead junkie armed robbery suspect is spewing out!

 

[sgtmac_46]

almost half (47.9 percent) felt that emergency physicians should be legally required to report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.

REALLY!!! What these quacks need to REALLY concentrate on are the 195,000 negligent DEATHS A YEAR IN HOSPITALS FROM MALPRACTICE!!!! http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php:soapbox:

POLICE BRUTALITY DOESN'T KILL PEOPLE.....DOCTORS DO! And who polices doctors?! OTHER DOCTORS! Perhaps THAT should change!

 

[sgtmac_46]

So.....if I bring in drunken idiot who's head is gashed open........and he SWEARS to anyone who will listen 'THEY BEAT ME!'........is the victim of police brutality? Yes/No


Here's the thing.....when we bring someone in to the ER, we don't explain ourselves to the doctor.....we don't file a report with him. We explain the basics of the injury, and that's it. They treat the patient, the patient whines, lies, distorts, etc.

In the above case, a true story, I brought a guy in who's head needed stitching......a guy who SWORE we beat him......unfortunately for him, the incident was caught on camera......he caused ALL THE INJURIES to himself by headbutting my patrol car cage AFTER being arrested for domestic violence.......he split his OWN head open, then tried to swear we did it!

Now, that's probably one of those incidents the doctors reported as 'Police Brutality'.......I mean, he had an injury, and he SWORE we did it to him......he wouldn't lie would he? NAAAAHHHHH!!!!

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1092518&postcount=408