Police brutality.

[Flatlander]

I wonder how many instances of excessive or unwarranted force could be avoided if police were given adequate h2h training. I don't know the specific training the recruits in the US get, but here, ours are not adequately trained, in my opinion. I believe its simple PPCT, and a little judo (for takedowns) and a little baton (basically how to swing it). In terms of actual training hours, very few, and no mandatory or even optional, departmentally sponsored ongoing training. This just doesn't cut the mustard.

The Police Board's philosophy seems to be "cheaper to put one in the ground and train a replacement, than equip one with the necessary and appropriate skills."

Doesn't it seem ridiculous to you that after weekly training for one year in a combative art, a combative arts student should be able to destroy an unaware or careless officer of the law? I think its absolute lunacy, but there it is.

 

[Tgace]

OC has a lower chance of injury to offender and officer. Most depts. are going to, soft hand control only of willing/semi-willing offenders (come alongs, joint locks). To the "no go's", either active resistors or people who obviously are going to fight you, its safer to right to OC. Close in to grappling range with somebody who you know you are going to fight with is an invitation to bad mojo. If the OC dosent work or you get jumped is when you really need that h2h.

 

[OULobo]

As to speed traps and manpower, maybe other agencies work differently, but around here its the State Police on the Thruways that do a lot of speed enforcement. In my dept we have 2 Traffic cars that do most of the radar work and accident/DWI processing. I am radar certified, but only use it when I get a car that has it. Even then I use it primarily as PC for a stop so I can get guns/drugs/warrants/stolen property etc. I usually only write blatent lead feet. The same can be said of about 90% of my dept.

I am really on the side of the cops when it comes to the speed issue. I even sometimes find myself wishing they were around more often. As Tgace said they don't usually bother speeders unless it is really excessive speeds or dangerous actions, and those are the people I just love seeing pulled over, I even pray they get pulled over (It helps to ease my road rage). Add into it the fact that so many busts for other more serious crimes start as speed stops and I'm all for it, as long as the officer stays within the confines of his arest powers and the citizens civil rights. What I do hate is the situations that Techno mentioned, where small villes that have a miniscule sliver of an interstate have a consistant and ultra strict speed trap so they can make some extra revenue. That's not cool.

Problem is that when police are wrong, even severely wrong, even repeatedly severely wrong, they are not fired. How many have we seen cleared when their conduct was so obviously unjust even the jury said so but could not move forward because of technicality?

I saw an interesting posting, I can't remember if I saw it here or not, about a guy that was shot and killed by a cop after he came at the officer with a knife. Justifiable shooting, except the knife was nowhere to be found when backup arrived. So they assumed it had fallen down a sewer drain next to the body. Someone pulls up the drain cover and climbs down to find the knife. They come up with 4 knives that the other officers had thrown down to cover their buddy. The real knife was later found wedged under the body in a hard to find area. Goes to show the scary part of the police. That their loyalty to each other goes way beyond the duties of the job or the rights of a citizen.

I also notice this on the administrative level. The captains, cheifs and commissioners will back their officers even when they know the officer is wrong and just got caught red handed. They refuse to dicipline unless a court rules it or the mayor calls, and they absolutly refuse to apologize, admit to any wrong doing or sometimes even question the actions of the officer. One thing I've never seen in a station is impartiality.

To Tgace's comment about firing when leave may be more appropriate, in my job any screw up that comes to the attention of a higher up WILL get me fired, I'm just a chemist, I don't deal with life or death situations or law suits very much. I don't see why a cop should get more breaks than an average working guy.

OC has a lower chance of injury to offender and officer. Most depts. are going to, soft hand control only of willing/semi-willing offenders (come alongs, joint locks). To the "no go's", either active resistors or people who obviously are going to fight you, its safer to right to OC. Close in to grappling range with somebody who you know you are going to fight with is an invitation to bad mojo. If the OC dosent work or you get jumped is when you really need that h2h.

Not to mention the availability and proximity of the officer's side arm to the suspect.

 

[Tgace]

To Tgace's comment about firing when leave may be more appropriate, in my job any screw up that comes to the attention of a higher up WILL get me fired, I'm just a chemist, I don't deal with life or death situations or law suits very much. I don't see why a cop should get more breaks than an average working guy.

Hmmm...Ive worked In 3 different professions and 6 different jobs in my life before my current one (not including part-time/summer vacation etc. work) and I havent had one yet that would fire over one screw-up and Ive seen everything from theft, sexual harassment and workplace violence occur without firing. So Ive been an "average working guy" longer than Ive been a cop and I respectfully disagree.

 

[OULobo]

From : kenpotex
In : http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15428


"When I was in college one of my professors (retired D.C. metro narcotics/US Marshall) told us a humorous story regarding "throwaway" weapons. It seems that when he was working in D.C. an officer shot a guy who was attacking him with a knife, problem was that when his backup and supervisor(s) showed up they couldn't find the knife. The guy's body was lying in the gutter right next to a storm drain so they figured that the knife might have fallen down there. when they pulled the manhole cover and went down to look they found five knives that other officers (obviously unbeknownst to each other) had apparently dropped in an effort to "cover" their buddy. when the coroner showed up to get the body they found that the knife was underneath it."



This is the story i was trying to tell in my previous post.

 

[Tgace]

The "Blue Wall"
http://www.npr.org/news/national/1997/aug/970820.blue.html
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/15/police.torture/
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju62440.000/hju62440_0.HTM
http://www.dcwatch.com/police/981006d.htm

Since misconduct does exist...
http://www.skepticfiles.org/aclu/police_m.htm

What's wrong with your police department is not necessarily the same as
what's wrong in another city. Police departments are different in size,
quality of management, local traditions and the severity of problems.
Some departments are gravely corrupt; others are relatively "clean" but
have poor relations with community residents. Also, a city's political
environment, which affects both how the police operate and the
possibilities for achieving reform, is different in every city. For
example, it is often easier to reform police procedures in cities that
have a tradition of "good government," or in cities where minorities are
well organized politically.

Part of the issue...
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/205/205lect09.htm

 

[Mark Weiser]

I live in Topeka Kansas an this debate is a big one here in our hometown. There have been instances where Officers have been "slapped on the wrist" however there have been at least two incidents where Police Officers faced criminal charges and were fired by the Department.

The Process to remove an Officer is very detailed and private not for public disclosure. So when the Citizens are angry at an Officer(s) they want immeadate justice and when the Department backs up the Officer it gives the appearence of a Conspiracy of Corruption.

This makes for a difficult job for the PR Dept.But unless you have worn the badge and sat down with other Officers on a daily business you will understand why the process is in place.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser
Former Reserve Deputy Sheriff
Shawnee & Sedgwick Counties State of Kansas

 

[Tgace]

On the flip side, I dont want to see police officers getting hurt or killed because they are "afraid" to use force either. Extremes in any direction are counterproductive.

 

[Kevin Walker]

Today in Boston we just had our second police shooting this July.

1. On July 1st, an ex-con Afro-American was stopped in traffic for a minor violation, got in an argument and fight with the patrolman, and was shot three times while running away - he died in the street. Police said he had a gun and was in fear of his life, yet three different eyewitnesses said there was no gun (and no gun was found, so I guess the cop didn't have his 'throw down' with him).

2. Just today a retarded 35 year old hispanic man with a history of mental illness and trouble making was shot to death inside his apartment when police arrive to the apartment building and said he threatened them with a knife. Why no attempt at Tai Ho Jitsu? I've disarmed knife weilding assailants as a bouncer.

And two months ago in East Boston, a Vietnamese woman had trouble with her beligerant retarded son, so she called the Boston police for help, they stormed in and beat the 22 year old kid into a coma. The mother was in hysterics, fainted, and also had to be taken to the hospital. She said in the paper she just wanted help with her son.

Last year in downtown Boston, a captain fired his automatic at a parked black van. The captain said the driver tried to run him down. Unfortunately for the captain, and fortunately for us mere U.S. citizens, the van was filled with seven assistant D.A.s on their way to the U.S. district court. It turned out that the dispute was over a place to park, the captain had a long history of violent infractions, and a Boston paper reported last week that a certain Boston captain is no longer on the force. Might have been a different outcome if it wasn't a van full of Assistant D. A. 's.

I've witnessed Boston police beat up helpless winos and bums over my past five decades here in Boston, with my witnessing transit cops kick an unconscious wino (i.e. homeless person) in the head late at night in a train station last winter

This kind of unprofessional behavior goes on too frequently to keep calling it an isolated incident of police misconduct. We have a police problem in these here United States, and we simply just need to get rid of the police and replace them with a constabulary (in my humble opinion).

The debate of Police Brutality has been ongoing here in Boston for several years and nothing is being done. The brutality keeps occuring!

I live in Topeka Kansas an this debate is a big one here in our hometown. There have been instances where Officers have been "slapped on the wrist" however there have been at least two incidents where Police Officers faced criminal charges and were fired by the Department.

The Process to remove an Officer is very detailed and private not for public disclosure. So when the Citizens are angry at an Officer(s) they want immeadate justice and when the Department backs up the Officer it gives the appearence of a Conspiracy of Corruption.

This makes for a difficult job for the PR Dept.But unless you have worn the badge and sat down with other Officers on a daily business you will understand why the process is in place.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser
Former Reserve Deputy Sheriff
Shawnee & Sedgwick Counties State of Kansas

 

[Tgace]

Today in Boston we just had our second police shooting this July.

1. On July 1st, an ex-con Afro-American was stopped in traffic for a minor violation, got in an argument and fight with the patrolman, and was shot three times while running away - he died in the street. Police said he had a gun and was in fear of his life, yet three different eyewitnesses said there was no gun (and no gun was found, so I guess the cop didn't have his 'throw down' with him).

2. Just today a retarded 35 year old hispanic man with a history of mental illness and trouble making was shot to death inside his apartment when police arrive to the apartment building and said he threatened them with a knife. Why no attempt at Tai Ho Jitsu? I've disarmed knife weilding assailants as a bouncer.

And two months ago in East Boston, a Vietnamese woman had trouble with her beligerant retarded son, so she called the Boston police for help, they stormed in and beat the 22 year old kid into a coma. The mother was in hysterics, fainted, and also had to be taken to the hospital. She said in the paper she just wanted help with her son.

Last year in downtown Boston, a captain fired his automatic at a parked black van. The captain said the driver tried to run him down. Unfortunately for the captain, and fortunately for us mere U.S. citizens, the van was filled with seven assistant D.A.s on their way to the U.S. district court. It turned out that the dispute was over a place to park, the captain had a long history of violent infractions, and a Boston paper reported last week that a certain Boston captain is no longer on the force. Might have been a different outcome if it wasn't a van full of Assistant D. A. 's.

I've witnessed Boston police beat up helpless winos and bums over my past five decades here in Boston, with my witnessing transit cops kick an unconscious wino (i.e. homeless person) in the head late at night in a train station last winter

This kind of unprofessional behavior goes on too frequently to keep calling it an isolated incident of police misconduct. We have a police problem in these here United States, and we simply just need to get rid of the police and replace them with a constabulary (in my humble opinion).

The debate of Police Brutality has been ongoing here in Boston for several years and nothing is being done. The brutality keeps occuring!

Than you need to do something about the BPD or get out of Boston....Read what the ACLU said about differences in police agencies. (its pretty much what I said a few pages back) And how to promote reform. What makes you think a constabulary is going to be staffed with prefect, zero mistake people? People are fallible... the solution is better hiring practices, better training, better supervision and better misconduct policy...in my experience theres more good cops than bad.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

This cop was obviously just defending himself:

http://www.youtube.com/w/Street-Fights-Cop-Beats-Kid?v=-JjDmCg9mvY&feature=Views&page=4&t=t&f=b

(Warning - loud foul language)

otherwise pretty funny.

 

[shesulsa]

I'm fairly certain that verbally and digitally assaulting a police officer is against the law ... not certain about the baton use, though, have to look that one up.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I think its fake.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This cop was obviously just defending himself:

http://www.youtube.com/w/Street-Fights-Cop-Beats-Kid?v=-JjDmCg9mvY&feature=Views&page=4&t=t&f=b

(Warning - loud foul language)

otherwise pretty funny.

Fake.

 

[shesulsa]

In that particular clip, the uniformed officer was just meandering around in the grass outside a parking structure ... what on earth would an LEO be doing in that particular situation? He wouldn't. I think it's fake too.

 

[jdinca]

Fake.

 

[Cujo]

Fake.

Pax
Cujo

 

[aplonis]

Was this on the road? Was it in view of the cop's own camera aimed out the front of his cruiser? If so, get a lawyer and subpeona that tape for a lawsuit.

If ever this happens to me, although I can't imagine it, I'll make every effort to stay in full view of that camera. If the tape somehow suffers a malfunction. Then it would be a case of the whole department, and not one officer, being to blame. The so-called Blue Wall of Silence. Your enemy then would have to be the uniform, not the individual.

In such a case, if folks are truly abused at random, then it would be neither more nor less unjust for those same folks to bide patiently a year (to blur the awareness of causality) then take retribution at random against the "uniform" in a wholly general sense. That is to say, just like with enemy soldiers, there'd be no need to pick and choose. According to their own kind of thinking, any uniform at all from the same department would do. Such a response would be only playing by the same exact rules as they. That, at least, is one way of thinking.

It amuses me that some uniform will read this and perhaps be given pause to contemplate the notion of common courtesy. Consider me an agent provocateur.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Was this on the road? Was it in view of the cop's own camera aimed out the front of his cruiser? If so, get a lawyer and subpeona that tape for a lawsuit.

If ever this happens to me, although I can't imagine it, I'll make every effort to stay in full view of that camera. If the tape somehow suffers a malfunction. Then it would be a case of the whole department, and not one officer, being to blame. The so-called Blue Wall of Silence. Your enemy then would have to be the uniform, not the individual.

In such a case, if folks are truly abused at random, then it would be neither more nor less unjust for those same folks to bide patiently a year (to blur the awareness of causality) then take retribution at random against the "uniform" in a wholly general sense. That is to say, just like with enemy soldiers, there'd be no need to pick and choose. According to their own kind of thinking, any uniform at all from the same department would do. Such a response would be only playing by the same exact rules as they. That, at least, is one way of thinking.

It amuses me that some uniform will read this and perhaps be given pause to contemplate the notion of common courtesy. Consider me an agent provocateur.

You might want to watch the video again.....it's fake.

I find the idea that you're simply going to go after any uniform, if one offends you, asinine. You might want to reevaluate.

 

[aplonis]

You might want to watch the video again.....it's fake.

I could not view it on my Unix station. The page asked for a Win32 plugin to Firefox which was not installed on my platform. Since most already agreed it was fake, I hardly thought to expend the effort of installing new software to view.

I thought to instead make a course correction away from the prior thread drift and address the original topic from the first post. I had expected to draw more fire with the wording therein. No one very much took the bait. Nevertheless, I shall plow on with my usual followup rhetoric.

Actually no, I do not despise all uniformed persons...just a certain type of viewpoint, a flawed mentality all too prevalent in American culture. The one fallen prey to by certain individuals the moment they put on a uniform. And it is obvious, at least to me, that the uniformed civilian authorities take very small pains to screen that sort out after recruitment.

It has always seemed to me ironic that someone, anyone would hide behind an artificial group identity and pretend that mere clothes immune them from personal responsibility. They claim to be the group who is acting and not a person. It is as if karma could not see beyond their uniform. Were that to be the case then it should be the group who expects to receive retribution and no person among them take personal offence.

Ridiculous, isn't it? If the latter part is absurd then the former part is also. Officers are indeed responsible for the laws which they inforce and the policies by means of which they enforce them. In this there is no distinction between them and Nazi death camp guards except in the matter of degree.

The fact that the term "cop killer" exists at all in any sense distinct from "waitress killer" or "fireman killer" shows how far our culture has bought into a quite obviously flawed evaluation of human life. Ask not why a greater effort is made to capture a cop killer...ask rather why a lesser one is made on behalf of anyone else.