Opinions on Lenny Sly's Aikido Combative concepts?

[drop bear]

Hi GPaul I actually did not ask a question but made a statement, the video looks great for a training or demo and don't doubt the guy is skilled but it is what it is a demo.
I suppose the question is why do aikidoka need to prove it works to validate the art for themselves? If a person is practicing the art and enjoys it for what it is then that really is all there is to it. Lenny seems like a no b.s. kinda of guy and passionate about his aikido so it's not everyone cup of tea especially if you are more inclined to a more pacifist direction.

It would be nice if your martial arts worked. I dont think being an effective martial artist stops you being a pacifist. In fact it probably helps. I mean there are plent of effective martial artists who can not hurt people.

Dude is getting handled and not crippled.

 

[drop bear]

Staged.

And paid for I think.

That was rick roufus doing a promotional.

 

[Encho]

It would be nice if your martial arts worked. I don't think being an effective martial artist stops you from being a pacifist. In fact it probably helps. I mean there are plenty of effective martial artists who can not hurt people.

Dude is getting handled and not crippled.

Hi Drop Bear,
Here is my original quote
"Lenny seems like a no b.s. kinda of guy and passionate about his aikido so it's not everyone cup of tea especially if you are more inclined to a more pacifist direction."
My post was in references to Lenny and his method of practice in his Aikido vs the more pacifistic idealism that the founder of Aikido is often quoted and interpreted as love and unity and not an emphasis on violent conflict that Lenny stresses as real world application.

 

[Martial D]

Hey look I am the first person to rag on Aikido when it is warranted. Which is pretty much always. But they are chunking guys on their butts who dont want to get chunked. And that is working.

This is..surprising. I did suspect there might be something hiding under all the theatrics, but this is the first real evidence I've seen of it.

Thanks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is..surprising. I did suspect there might be something hiding under all the theatrics, but this is the first real evidence I've seen of it.

Thanks.

Tomiki folks appear to have more in-close control than I see in some of the other branches of Ueshiba's art.

 

[GPaul]

Exactly. And having stepped outside

Staged.

I thought so the first time I viewed it. This is from a roughly 50 minute video on National Geographic in which the MMA master/champion, shown at the beginning, later visits the dojo of the fellow attacked in the video. It's interesting as he attempts the skills of the sensei in the video. He is, btw, the son of the late Gozo Shioda, a student of O'Sensei and who many consider taught a harder style of Aikido.

Lenny Sly has a video showing his response to a similar attack but no kick. I wonder if he would have been blindsided by the karate kick. Keep in mind, too. All of his videos, every one, are by definition staged for the purpose of teaching.

 

[GPaul]

Tomiki folks appear to have more in-close control than I see in some of the other branches of Ueshiba's art.

Pretty good comparison. There would be one difference, in that “Aikido” is both the art Ueshiba created and the category of arts, as designated by the Dai Nippon Butokku-kai. So, in this case, it’s a correct name, even if it’s a different art (which I don’t see it as).

That's the inflection point. In Ueshiba Aikido, technique evolves from moving in response to an attack. Not from when I am attacked in a certain way, I will respond with a particular technique. This is why O'Sensei is quoted saying there are infinite Aikido techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the inflection point. In Ueshiba Aikido, technique evolves from moving in response to an attack. Not from when I am attacked in a certain way, I will respond with a particular technique. This is why O'Sensei is quoted saying there are infinite Aikido techniques.

I think that's the endpoint of most (all?) arts. That's when we transcend the "techniques and applications" approach, and start playing in what I call "the grey spaces between techniques". I think there's an earlier emphasis on this in Ueshiba's Aikido than in most arts, from my observations.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I thought so the first time I viewed it. This is from a roughly 50 minute video on National Geographic in which the MMA master/champion, shown at the beginning, later visits the dojo of the fellow attacked in the video. It's interesting as he attempts the skills of the sensei in the video. He is, btw, the son of the late Gozo Shioda, a student of O'Sensei and who many consider taught a harder style of Aikido.

Lenny Sly has a video showing his response to a similar attack but no kick. I wonder if he would have been blindsided by the karate kick. Keep in mind, too. All of his videos, every one, are by definition staged for the purpose of teaching.

I have no objection to presenting a choreographed demo for purposes of exhibition or teaching. I have a problem with presenting such a demo and claiming it is a non-staged real fight. The clip shown was most definitely a staged demo and it was dishonest for the show to claim otherwise.

 

[GPaul]

Exactly. And having stepped outside


I thought so the first time I viewed it. This is from a roughly 50 minute video on National Geographic in which the MMA master/champion, shown at the beginning, later visits the dojo of the fellow attacked in the video. It's interesting as he attempts the skills of the sensei in the video. He is, btw, the son of the late Gozo Shioda, a student of O'Sensei and who many consider taught a harder style of Aikido.

Lenny Sly has a video showing his response to a similar attack but no kick. I wonder if he would have been blindsided by the karate kick. Keep in mind, too. All of his videos, every one, are by definition staged for the purpose of teaching.

IMO, the key take away is the attackers agreed the problems both had was the defender simply moved off the line of the attack. This is the key feature of Aikido as the founder had refined it before his death.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

IMO, the key take away is the attackers agreed the problems both had was the defender simply moved off the line of the attack. This is the key feature of Aikido as the founder had refined it before his death.

Moving off of the line of the attack is an important feature of lots of martial arts, including boxing, MMA, Capoeira, and many, many more. If someone claims to be a MMA champion and to not know how to deal with an opponent moving off the line of attack, then they are lying about at least one of those claims.

 

[GPaul]

Moving off of the line of the attack is an important feature of lots of martial arts, including boxing, MMA, Capoeira, and many, many more. If someone claims to be a MMA champion and to not know how to deal with an opponent moving off the line of attack, then they are lying about at least one of those claims.

And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing, Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line. I apologize for expressing this as typical off line movement.

 

[Martial D]

And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing, Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line. I apologize for expressing this as typical off line movement.

The thing is using a staged example to support non staged application falls pretty flat. I do realize if you train aikido or akijujutsu in an alive combative fashion it can be a boon, but it seems like the overwhelming majority do not. I feel this is why(as with Wing Chun) aikido is not taken as seriously as it could be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing, Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line. I apologize for expressing this as typical off line movement.

I do think the way some Aikidoka move off-line is different. And sometimes it just feels surprising, because they don't seem to be getting out of the way, then they do. I had a training partner who I would use to demonstrate using a soft push block with a small evasion, because he has strong, fast straight punches (rank in Shotokan, as well). He would always complain afterward that he was afraid he would hit me, and then it just didn't happen. The point of doing it that way is to keep them committed to the attack that seems to be working, until we can access the technique/principle we want to use.

NOTE: I expect you know this - just expanding on your earlier comment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is using a staged example to support non staged application falls pretty flat. I do realize if you train aikido or akijujutsu in an alive combative fashion it can be a boon, but it seems like the overwhelming majority do not. I feel this is why(as with Wing Chun) aikido is not taken as seriously as it could be.

It's a particular challenge for Aikido (actually, for aiki arts), IMO, because if I know you're trying to do Aikido, I can take away many of the opportunities for "aiki" responses, leaving few of those opportunities and more opportunities for striking and Judo-style principles. So, if we want to practice aiki, we have to have a more cooperative situation more often, so I give you input (feed the right attacks) that make those techniques available. I think some branches of Aikido have taken too much focus on that pure aiki for a stand-alone art. It works well if you already have a functional base, but it doesn't allow students to form a functional base as cleanly as other arts do.

 

[Martial D]

It's a particular challenge for Aikido (actually, for aiki arts), IMO, because if I know you're trying to do Aikido, I can take away many of the opportunities for "aiki" responses, leaving few of those opportunities and more opportunities for striking and Judo-style principles. So, if we want to practice aiki, we have to have a more cooperative situation more often, so I give you input (feed the right attacks) that make those techniques available. I think some branches of Aikido have taken too much focus on that pure aiki for a stand-alone art. It works well if you already have a functional base, but it doesn't allow students to form a functional base as cleanly as other arts do.

Well, as a guy that has worked WC into my functional repertoire, I understand that being a 'purist' isn't always the strongest option.

It seems that as a supliment to an existing repertoire it could and should have it's uses, mainly opertunities for small joint manipulation and getting off line in a way that's unexpected. I can't say for sure though as I've never trained a day of any 'aki' style.

 

[Encho]

IMO, the key take away is the attackers agreed the problems both had was the defender simply moved off the line of the attack. This is the key feature of Aikido as the founder had refined it before his death.

That is interesting as moving off the line of attack isn't a feature in daito ryu.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is interesting as moving off the line of attack isn't a feature in daito ryu.

This is a point I've been meaning to ask about. Let me start with this: How much does Daito-ryu enter, versus exiting, in response to an attack?

 

[Encho]

This is a point I've been meaning to ask about. Let me start with this: How much does Daito-ryu enter, versus exiting, in response to an attack?

I am not sure what you mean by exiting,
Entering is definitely there on a straight line, with the idea to beat the attacker to the punch sort of speak, at least on kihon level
I don't want to say that all daito ryu technique are done on a straight line and my opinion that daito ryu teaches different ways of exposure of aiki.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing

I see two possibilities here.

a) The two were instructed to act as compliant ukes for a demonstration and describe the demonstrated techniques. Then editing and narration were used by the producers of the video to present the misleading impression that this was an actual sparring match.
b) The two were complicit in pretending a compliant demo was a sparring match.

Let's break down what is shown ...

1) The "karateka" grabs Shioda by the lapels like an untrained bully, does nothing else, and waits around for the aikidoka to perform a technique.

2) The "professional MMA fighter" throws a few tentative punches from out of range then, without any sort of setup to create a good opening, launches an out-to-in crescent kick. (Which is almost never used in MMA, for good reason.) When his target ducks out of the way, he allows the kick to turn him away from his target and makes no effort to recover his position. Then when Shioda pulls him down he makes no effort to defend himself on the ground and allows himself to be pinned in a position that any competent grappler could counter.

3) The two make no effort to work together intelligently. Instead they take turns throwing slow, sloppy punches without any set up and then leaving their arms extended at the end of the punch so the aikidoka can grab their wrists and apply a lock.

That's not a real fight. It's not a real sparring session. It's a compliant demo designed to make the demonstrator look good.

Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line.

Nothing in his evasive movement was particularly out of the ordinary.

I do think the way some Aikidoka move off-line is different. And sometimes it just feels surprising, because they don't seem to be getting out of the way, then they do.

Good boxers will do this. Good capoeristas too. I was taught to do the same in Bujinkan Taijutsu, but since that is normally practiced with compliant partners I don't think practitioners are typically as skilled at pulling it off in a live situation.