Obama not respecting the flag? Big deal or not?

Discussion in 'US Election 2008' started by Cruentus, Jan 15, 2008.

  1. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    At an OP in view of your house...
    Old news I know, and this is probably just another example of the media making a mountain out of a molehill.

    But to see the picture was actually unsettling to me. I didn't pay these stories any mind until I actually looked at the photo.

    Thoughts? (actually look at the picture, then tell us what you think...)

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-salute.htm
     
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  2. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    I just cannot support a man that will not show proper respect to the flag, sorry I'm just odd that way.
     
  3. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    I'm still skeptical on this one....I mean, it is obvious from many sources that he didn't do it. Now, I'm someone who is REQUIRED to salute most of the times that I hear the national anthem....it is even written into the flag code that while in uniform, I'm required to. But I can't see the guy doing this as any sort of disrespect or statement.

    This was one instance and if you look around the internet, there are plenty of places where he does put his hand over his heart - so it isn't like he refuses to or is not honoring his country. Who knows the explanation, temporary lapse, personal preference, custom, whatever it is....I wouldn't judge a man by one instance. Of all of the UNTRUE rumors out there about him, I just don't think that this one instance is as important as people are making it out to be.

    Plus, if we're looking at strict adherance to rules and custom......well, the flag code says that you are supposed to be standing at attention facing the flag - which NONE of them are. He is standing, which in my opinion is paying a courtesy to the flag. On top of that, there have been times when I've heard the song and haven't put my hand on my heart.....sporting events, walking past a TV, etc. And to make things worse.....I - a member of the military, have on occassion, RUN to my car to avoid having to stand outside for an additional 5 minutes while retreat and the anthem are played......maybe a break in protocol, but I don't think of myself as any less patriotic because of it.
     
  4. Hollywood1340

    Hollywood1340 2nd Black Belt

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    I too stand as such for the presentation of the flag. I'm a born and bred American, with with American Roots deeper then many who claim to be American. So because I chose not to show respect to a national symbol, the way you do, you can't show me respect and support? Doesn't that seem contrary to the very things that symbol represents? This is America where I have the freedom to worship, speak, and live as I see fit as long as I'm in the boundaries of the law laid down by the city, state, and nation. My patriotism is deeper then putting my hand over my heart, or reciting a pledge. Anyone can do that. My patriotism lies in my bigger actions of voting, taking active part in my government, following the issues that matter to me, and seeing that those freedoms that our flag stands for are not put in jeopardy by those telling me the correct way to use those freedoms. If a small manner such as this is enough to not show support for a fellow American, what is the use of showing support to an empty symbol?
     
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  5. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    At an OP in view of your house...
    Faulty logic. I support yours and anyones right to not salute the flag. However, I don't have to vote for you for President. Not showing respect for the flag of the country you expect to lead is grounds for not getting elected in my opinion.

    That said, 1 incident doesn't mean that he isn't patriotic. But the photo still looks disturbing to me.

    But to be fair, here are photo's of him properly saluting the flag, and a blog in favor of his position:

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/obama_nabbed_by_the_patriotic.html

    Obama was wrong in the non-saluting photo, as you are supposed to salute during the anthem as well as the pledge. But, I doubt he'll make that mistake again...
     
  6. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    I do believe that there was a colorguard not shown in the pic, and they were facing that flag; but I could be wrong..
     
  7. Hollywood1340

    Hollywood1340 2nd Black Belt

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    As a matter of PR, yes, a bad call. But I applaud the photo and the ruckus it causes. See my above.
     
  8. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    Well... I don't know how anyone could "applaud" it, other then "I like Obama so I applaud everything he does." But whatever, your choice...

    I would say that he made a mistake, but I wouldn't consider it one that should prevent people from voting for him if they like him.
     
  9. Jade Tigress

    Jade Tigress RAWR

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    I think it's a problem for someone who is hoping to lead our country. Whether he does it all the time or not, he's making a statement. What flag does he pledge allegiance to?
     
  10. grydth

    grydth Senior Master

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    Two sides to this one...... if our flag is only "an empty symbol", I wonder why it is so important to our enemies to defile, burn and trample it in public?

    Maybe I am "old fashioned", but before condemning him, I'd like to hear from Obama on this. I couldn't care less what some talking head flack says in support - I want to hear from him. This man is no fool. He knows an intentional act of disrespect would smash his central campaign theme of being a uniter, and it would provide armor piercing ammunition to the whispering campaign hinting at a sinister America hating agenda.

    Looking at the facial expression and body posture - I see no defiance or hatred there.... more like he's thinking about something far away.

    I don't say the issue isn't a fair one to bring up - but let's give Obama a chance. Isn't that something the flag stands for?
     
  11. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Do we even know for certain that this picture is not a doctored one? [​IMG]
     
  12. grydth

    grydth Senior Master

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    The photo appears on Time's website as well.

    I believe the photo is real - as are numerous other pictures showing Obama demonstrating respect for the flag.
     
  13. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    I don't pledge allegiance to any flag, to be honest I find the idea of pledging allegiance to a flag rather odd.

    Patriotism shouldn't have anything to do with saluting flags or pledging allegiance to them. Those are just symbolic, but shallow gestures. I'd be more worried about what a candidate is going to do for the country, rather then how well they salute a icon. (Isn't there a commandment against that?)

    Remember the folks that brought you the "Patriot" act where very good at saluting, and putting flags everywhere. Doesn't make them patriotic, at least not in any good way.

    It's perhaps a bad PR decision, but I don't think any more then that can get claimed.
     
  14. CoryKS

    CoryKS Senior Master

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    No, it isn't a shallow gesture. The flag is a symbol of the country and the people in it. By pledging allegiance, one demonstrates one's willingness to ally with one's neighbors in order to keep the nation strong. By denying that allegiance, one is stating that he will not do his part, does not consider himself part of the whole, and chooses not to participate in the give/take nature of that society - the rights afforded and the responsibilities expected. Most of the nu-patriots I see sure seem comfortable with the taking, though.

    You can define patriotism however you like, but AFAIC your definition means that, should something happen to you, you stand alone.
     
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  15. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    Has nothing to do with standing alone, it has to do with pledinging allegiance to a symbol, a piece of cloth. Canadians are proud to be Canadians, and we do stand together as much as you folks do. Yet the flag culture just isn't here to that level.
     
  16. CoryKS

    CoryKS Senior Master

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    But a symbol is a stand-in for something else. It's a pointer by reference. So you're not actually pledging allegiance to physical piece of cloth but to that which represented by it.
     
  17. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I pledge alliegence to the Pirate Flag in my YAAAAAARD.

    No seriously. I used to fly an American flag, but i got so much flak I took it down and fly a Pirate flag now.
     
  18. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    A most enlightening insight into other nationalities mindsets in a most unlikely thread to hold such interesting nuggets.

    I have to say that I agree more strongly with Mr. Green than those who feel the 'pledging allegiance to the flag' to be much more important than we give it credit for.

    However, I note that most who are more deeply opinionated on this are those of our membership who are currently serving or ex-military, so I can understand the ingrained nature of the attitude. A few of my ex-army friends are spinal-reflex progammed to stand to attention when the National Anthem plays and you'd darned certainly better not say anything slighting about the Queen in their prescence :eek:!

    For me, as an Englishman, seeing American politicians mouthing PC platitudes and aping patriotic symbolism is quite disturbing. Government is, or should be, about practical issues and the media-manipulation that so characterises US politics (and infected ours from the '80's onwards) denigrates the whole process into a popularity contest based on lowest-common-denominator sound-bites and images.

    Bring back the full-power of the monarchy - at least you can have a revolution against one you disagree with.

    A puppet-show as the front for a non-democratic method of government is much worse - by this I mean that the pantomine of Talking Heads that is Democracy has little influence on the actual machinery of government, the prime directive of which is always to placate or control the masses so that they keep on generating wealth for those who hang near the top of the tree.
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    hmmm... i am confused how failing to salute the flag is equated with denying allegiance.
     
  20. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I wear a wedding band and care for it diligently - but I am not married to *it.* My name is a series of symbols standing for sounds which in combination form the sound of my name - but those sounds are not who I am. Nevertheless it is my name and associated with me.

    The flag, too, is a symbol and the red stripes in the US flag stand for blood that was shed to earn our freedom from tyranny (only to offer it up again to a new world tyranny - er, I mean "order").

    No one honors a piece of cloth. We honor all the symbol stands for - blood shed, pure new start, lives lost or changed forever.

    I cannot visit millions and millions of graves. I cannot say millions and millions of prayers. I cannot sign millions and millions of thank you notes. I cannot write millions of letters to my congressmen, representatives, I cannot say "Thank You" enough - but I can honor the one all-encompassing symbol of all these things. I can take care of it. I can help dispose of it honorably when no longer serviceable. I can refrain from degrading it by putting it on my car or hanging it from my front door.

    I can honor that flag ... as a symbol of all that it is.123
     
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