"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[wingchun100]

For the record, since KPM mentioned his history...

I studied about 6 months of Judo many moons ago. While it was not that long, but it was long ago, I still remember quite a bit of the principles, mainly because I feel sometimes like Judo is like Wing Chun minus the hitting, but plus ground work.

After that I moved on to a school that taught both Kung Fu or Tai Chi...or said they did. Many years later I realized that what they really taught was Wushu. Back then, when I did not know as much as I know now, I thought it was impressive when I saw the school's business card, and they claimed to teach at least 5 styles of Kung Fu (including animal styles) and just as many styles of Tai Chi. Now that I am older and wiser, I realize there is no way anyone could truly master THAT many styles well enough to teach them all. Many years later I had proof of this. One of my friends (who attended the school long after I had moved on to Wing Chun) told me that the Sifu at that school had a Praying Mantis Sifu visit from China. He came in to show them some techniques. A week after he left, the guy who ran the school was teaching the Praying Mantis stuff. Don't know how he mastered it in a week!

In January 1995, I moved on to Wing Chun. At the beginning, the Sifu had a partnership with Steven Lee Swift in Rochester. I believe he learned under Ip Chun. At some point there was a falling out between the two, and then the school became associated with Ip Ching. My attendance rose and fell over the years, sometimes due to financial issues...sometimes due to mental health issues. Last winter I had a major falling out with the Sifu (for reasons I have discussed on other threads). At the time I was already aware there was another gentleman in the area who taught Wing Chun. I also knew he was from a different lineage.

As you have all seen on this board, lineages are strongly defended. Switching lineages is frowned upon. However, I had a choice to make: either give up Wing Chun completely, or switch lineages. So I did the deed.

Anyway, in a nutshell...that's my martial arts history.

 

[Steve]

One primary difference can be seen in one of Emin's videos. Again, I know many are not fans here, but he talks about karate punches being generated with the hip whereas in Wing Chun your mechanics involve generating from your roots all the way up.

I am sure that I've read and heard many karateka say that power is generated in the root. I just did a quick Google search to see how common this is and found several references to power generation coming from the root in various styles of karate.

Point is, people say things all the time. If we've learned one thing around here, it's that people like to speak with authority about styles in which they do not train. Emin is certainly an authority on WC, but I'd recommend caution when he speaks with authority about other than WC (which includes BJJ, Karate or pretty much anything else). Emin would have all the motivation in the world to over-simplify or misrepresent other arts in order to help him sell his own product.

Personally, in any of these videos, whether from a guy named Boztep or a guy named Gracie or anyone, treat them like infomercials. Be skeptical of every claim.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just think how different the "engine" is between Aikido and Karate.

The "engine" is just a "trade off". In one situation, one "engine" may suit OK. In another situation, different "engine" may suit better.

If you compare

- riffle (such as the long fist, Zimen, ...),
- machine gun (such as prey mantis, WC, ...),
- grenade (such as Chan Taiji, Baji, XYLH, ...),

they serve different purpose on battle field. To learn just one single MA style (such as WC) is like to arm your soldiers with only one kind of weapon. You will not be able to fight a good battle.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am sure that I've read and heard many karateka say that power is generated in the root. I just did a quick Google search to see how common this is and found several references to power generation coming from the root in various styles of karate.

Point is, people say things all the time. If we've learned one thing around here, it's that people like to speak with authority about styles in which they do not train. Emin is certainly an authority on WC, but I'd recommend caution when he speaks with authority about other than WC (which includes BJJ, Karate or pretty much anything else). Emin would have all the motivation in the world to over-simplify or misrepresent other arts in order to help him sell his own product.

Personally, in any of these videos, whether from a guy named Boztep or a guy named Gracie or anyone, treat them like infomercials. Be skeptical of every claim.

I was thinking about that in relation to our strikes. Because ours are derived largely from Shotokan, we use a similar method for power. I could describe it as being hip-driven, leg-driven, root-driven, linear, or circular. And all would be accurate, depending upon how I describe them and which part I want the student to focus on. In fact, my focus changes when I talk to experienced students, because they can better understand the details without getting confused.

 

[wingchun100]

My apologies for generalizing.

I should have realized that on my own, from past experience.

It reminds me of when I watched a video called "Western boxing beats wing chun" or something like that. The boxing coach is talking about how "in Wing Chun they do this, but we can do that."

And as I'm watching, I'm thinking, "Yes, but in return...I could do THIS."

Like you said, people generalize or dismiss other arts. They see a couple seconds of how an art works, don't understand how it works, and think it doesn't, based on their training. I have done it myself.

 

[Flying Crane]

The "engine" is just a "trade off". In one situation, one "engine" may suit OK. In another situation, different "engine" may suit better.

If you compare

- riffle (such as the long fist, Zimen, ...),
- machine gun (such as prey mantis, WC, ...),
- grenade (such as Chan Taiji, Baji, XYLH, ...),

they serve different purpose on battle field. To learn just one single MA style (such as WC) is like to arm your soldiers with only one kind of weapon. You will not be able to fight a good battle.

I disagree. Consistency in your methodology is important. Training a bunch of different styles can get in the way, it interrupts the consistency and that is where you start having problems.

To go back to your analogy, it's like arming a soldier with a rifle, a machine gun, a pistol, and a grenade, but they are all just slung on his body, none of them ready to use. Then, an enemy jumps up from behind a bush from 20 feet away and points his weapon at you. And you are fumbling around, trying to decide which weapon to grab and use.

Better to be armed with just a rifle, and be holding it at the ready when you are moving through enemy territory. Let your squadmate deal with the machine gun. That's his territory.

Don't confuse and jumble your situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree. Consistency in your methodology is important. Training a bunch of different styles can get in the way, it interrupts the consistency and that is where you start having problems.

To go back to your analogy, it's like arming a soldier with a rifle, a machine gun, a pistol, and a grenade, but they are all just slung on his body, none of them ready to use. Then, an enemy jumps up from behind a bush from 20 feet away and points his weapon at you. And you are fumbling around, trying to decide which weapon to grab and use.

Better to be armed with just a rifle, and be holding it at the ready when you are moving through enemy territory. Let your squadmate deal with the machine gun. That's his territory.

Don't confuse and jumble your situation.

I sit on both sides of this issue. I think there may be some individuality involved. Everyone's brain is different, so maybe more is actually better in some brains, while a tighter concept is better in others. Maybe it's the "literal" vs. "conceptual" brain type. Maybe it's "rule-based" vs. "idea-based". I don't know. But I do know some folks do better with mixed arts than ours. Some even thrive on a mixture as beginners, while others get worse when they mix things too early.

 

[Flying Crane]

I sit on both sides of this issue. I think there may be some individuality involved. Everyone's brain is different, so maybe more is actually better in some brains, while a tighter concept is better in others. Maybe it's the "literal" vs. "conceptual" brain type. Maybe it's "rule-based" vs. "idea-based". I don't know. But I do know some folks do better with mixed arts than ours. Some even thrive on a mixture as beginners, while others get worse when they mix things too early.

I think it also depends on what systems get mixed. Two striking arts that operate on different principles is problematic. But a striking art with a grappling art operate in different arenas and are less likely to conflict.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don't confuse and jumble your situation.

You have major styles and minor styles. Your minor styles are used to fill into the holes for your major styles. Your major styles are still your "bread and butter". There should be no confusion there.

 

[Flying Crane]

You have major styles and minor styles. Your minor styles are used to fill into the holes for your major styles. Your major styles are still your "bread and butter". There should be no confusion there.

See my prior post, #648

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think it also depends on what systems get mixed. Two striking arts that operate on different principles is problematic. But a striking art with a grappling art operate in different arenas and are less likely to conflict.

This I will agree with you. I find it difficult (if not impossible) to mix 2 striking arts such as long fist and WC.

 

[Flying Crane]

This I will agree with you. I find it difficult (if not impossible) to mix 2 striking arts such as long fist and WC.

Yeah, having multiple striking methods, that's really like slinging three different rifles over your back and then trying to decide which to use as a situation arises.

Now ok, a soldier might have his rifle as his primary, and that is at the ready. But he also has a pistol and a knife, but those are for backup or for special circumstances. That's like focusing on the striking art as the primary with a grappling knowledge as a special circumstance or backup. There is sense to that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a soldier might have his rifle as his primary, ...

This is why when a MA system emphasizes on

- "speed", their punch won't have maximum power.
- "power", their multiple punches are slow.

In the following clip, it takes about 2 second for him to generate each punch. His punch has power but his power generation method just can't be integrated with the "WC chain punches" method.

So you have to switch between "fast punches combo" and "1 punch kill". IMO, even if WC guys can "once in a while" uses Baji power generation for "1 punch kill".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it also depends on what systems get mixed. Two striking arts that operate on different principles is problematic. But a striking art with a grappling art operate in different arenas and are less likely to conflict.

This is part of what I'm thinking about. Some folks don't have a problem with that - they just never really integrate one of them into their "personal style". It somehow seems not to interfere. I would generally recommend against it, just as I'd normally recommend against someone starting two arts at the same time under different instructors. Nonetheless, I've seen folks do that effectively, too.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is part of what I'm thinking about. Some folks don't have a problem with that - they just never really integrate one of them into their "personal style". It somehow seems not to interfere. I would generally recommend against it, just as I'd normally recommend against someone starting two arts at the same time under different instructors. Nonetheless, I've seen folks do that effectively, too.

Well, I think that those who are truly skilled and capable with multiple systems and can utilize the different and possibly contradicting methodologies seamlessly are rare. In most cases, the skill level is not as high as the person tends to believe it is.

Overall I recommend against it too. However, there is some sense in training in several different methods in order to figure out which is best for you. Then focus on that and excel.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is part of what I'm thinking about. Some folks don't have a problem with that - they just never really integrate one of them into their "personal style". It somehow seems not to interfere. I would generally recommend against it, just as I'd normally recommend against someone starting two arts at the same time under different instructors. Nonetheless, I've seen folks do that effectively, too.

Well, I think that those who are truly skilled and capable with multiple systems and can utilize the different and possibly contradicting methodologies seamlessly are rare. In most cases, the skill level is not as high as the person tends to believe it is.

Overall I recommend against it too. However, there is some s new in training in several different methods in order to figure out which is best for you. Then focus on that and excel.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is part of what I'm thinking about. Some folks don't have a problem with that - they just never really integrate one of them into their "personal style". It somehow seems not to interfere. I would generally recommend against it, just as I'd normally recommend against someone starting two arts at the same time under different instructors. Nonetheless, I've seen folks do that effectively, too.

There are many successful examples:

Kajukenbo (Japanese: かじゅけんぼ Kajukenbo) is an American hybrid martial art. The name Kajukenbo is a portmanteau of the various arts from which its style is derived:

- KA for Karate and Tang Soo Do Korean Karate,
- JU for Judo and Jujutsu,
- KEN for Kenpo and
- BO for Western and Chinese Boxing.

There are also:

- Baji mantis,
- Taiji mantis,
- XingYi Lu He,
- ...

 

[KPM]

This I will agree with you. I find it difficult (if not impossible) to mix 2 striking arts such as long fist and WC.

Wing Chun punches and boxing punches are mixed quite effectively in JKD.

 

[Juany118]

I disagree. Consistency in your methodology is important. Training a bunch of different styles can get in the way, it interrupts the consistency and that is where you start having problems.

To go back to your analogy, it's like arming a soldier with a rifle, a machine gun, a pistol, and a grenade, but they are all just slung on his body, none of them ready to use. Then, an enemy jumps up from behind a bush from 20 feet away and points his weapon at you. And you are fumbling around, trying to decide which weapon to grab and use.

Better to be armed with just a rifle, and be holding it at the ready when you are moving through enemy territory. Let your squadmate deal with the machine gun. That's his territory.

Don't confuse and jumble your situation.

You example ignore something, proper training. If my rifle is slung in front of me and I am in a field I raise it to my eye and fire. If the rifle jams I draw the pistol.

If I am in a constricted hallway and a bad guy pops out if a door I may draw my pistol because the hallway was to fight for a rifle. If it jams I then decide how to act, again based on my training.

In either case there is no confusion as a soldier. The same thing happens at work as a LEO in the martial arts context. I know when the Use of force continuum allows me to use empty hand or baton strikes and when it only permits empty hand control. So I use the appropriate techniques. Even if I am allowed to strike eventually I have to use control techniques. So I may enter with WC bridging and striking to "set up" a take down where I may find myself using Aikido and Judo techniques I have trained in, not only in the take down but to control once down until cuffed. There is no confusion, I do what is required, it just happens.

Now maybe @gpseymour is right and it's about how people are wired? Maybe the WC I study just flows naturally into my grappling arts? Maybe the fact I study Kali, which has more grappling than the WC I study under the same instructor along side it, allows me to make such connections easier? I don't know. I can only say "it works for me."

 

[Juany118]

Double post

 

[Juany118]

Double post.

 

[Flying Crane]

You example ignore something, proper training. If my rifle is slung in front of me and I am in a field I raise it to my eye and fire. If the rifle jams I draw the pistol.

If I am in a constricted hallway and a bad guy pops out if a door I may draw my pistol because the hallway was to fight for a rifle. If it jams I then decide how to act, again based on my training.

In either case there is no confusion as a soldier. The same thing happens at work as a LEO in the martial arts context. I know when the Use of force continuum allows me to use empty hand or baton strikes and when it only permits empty hand control. So I use the appropriate techniques. Even if I am allowed to strike eventually I have to use control techniques. So I may enter with WC bridging and striking to "set up" a take down where I may find myself using Aikido and Judo techniques I have trained in, not only in the take down but to control once down until cuffed. There is no confusion, I do what is required, it just happens.

Now maybe @gpseymour is right and it's about how people are wired? Maybe the WC I study just flows naturally into my grappling arts? Maybe the fact I study Kali, which has more grappling than the WC I study under the same instructor along side it, allows me to make such connections easier? I don't know. I can only say "it works for me."

Oh I know, none of these analogies are perfect. But I stand by my assessment.

 

[Flying Crane]

You example ignore something, proper training. If my rifle is slung in front of me and I am in a field I raise it to my eye and fire. If the rifle jams I draw the pistol.

If I am in a constricted hallway and a bad guy pops out if a door I may draw my pistol because the hallway was to fight for a rifle. If it jams I then decide how to act, again based on my training.

In either case there is no confusion as a soldier. The same thing happens at work as a LEO in the martial arts context. I know when the Use of force continuum allows me to use empty hand or baton strikes and when it only permits empty hand control. So I use the appropriate techniques. Even if I am allowed to strike eventually I have to use control techniques. So I may enter with WC bridging and striking to "set up" a take down where I may find myself using Aikido and Judo techniques I have trained in, not only in the take down but to control once down until cuffed. There is no confusion, I do what is required, it just happens.

Now maybe @gpseymour is right and it's about how people are wired? Maybe the WC I study just flows naturally into my grappling arts? Maybe the fact I study Kali, which has more grappling than the WC I study under the same instructor along side it, allows me to make such connections easier? I don't know. I can only say "it works for me."

Oh I know, none of these analogies are perfect. But I stand by my assessment.