"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[drop bear]

Well, I think that those who are truly skilled and capable with multiple systems and can utilize the different and possibly contradicting methodologies seamlessly are rare. In most cases, the skill level is not as high as the person tends to believe it is.

Overall I recommend against it too. However, there is some sense in training in several different methods in order to figure out which is best for you. Then focus on that and excel.

If you have to deal with more than one striking system then you need to have more than one system in your own tool belt.

Or to use your analogy. You pick up a weapon you should be able to shoot the thing.

People who are capable with multiple systems are the product of training multiple systems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are many successful examples:

Kajukenbo (Japanese: かじゅけんぼ Kajukenbo) is an American hybrid martial art. The name Kajukenbo is a portmanteau of the various arts from which its style is derived:

- KA for Karate and Tang Soo Do Korean Karate,
- JU for Judo and Jujutsu,
- KEN for Kenpo and
- BO for Western and Chinese Boxing.

There are also:

- Baji mantis,
- Taiji mantis,
- XingYi Lu He,
- ...

An existing hybrid art is a different matter, normally. The techniques are (or, at least, should be) chosen because they fit together in some useful fashion. And the principles are taught in a way that incorporates all those pieces. I think where the confusion comes in is where the principles taught seem contradictory and conflicting. It may be that viewing them a different way would remove the contradictions, and that process should already be done with a hybrid art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You example ignore something, proper training. If my rifle is slung in front of me and I am in a field I raise it to my eye and fire. If the rifle jams I draw the pistol.

If I am in a constricted hallway and a bad guy pops out if a door I may draw my pistol because the hallway was to fight for a rifle. If it jams I then decide how to act, again based on my training.

In either case there is no confusion as a soldier. The same thing happens at work as a LEO in the martial arts context. I know when the Use of force continuum allows me to use empty hand or baton strikes and when it only permits empty hand control. So I use the appropriate techniques. Even if I am allowed to strike eventually I have to use control techniques. So I may enter with WC bridging and striking to "set up" a take down where I may find myself using Aikido and Judo techniques I have trained in, not only in the take down but to control once down until cuffed. There is no confusion, I do what is required, it just happens.

Now maybe @gpseymour is right and it's about how people are wired? Maybe the WC I study just flows naturally into my grappling arts? Maybe the fact I study Kali, which has more grappling than the WC I study under the same instructor along side it, allows me to make such connections easier? I don't know. I can only say "it works for me."

I half-mentioned another aspect of this earlier, and you actually deal with it. It's where two arts are taught by the same instructor. I've seen this done with many arts, and a good instructor tends to make it work for the students. I think this backs the notion that part of the obstacle to integrating different arts is the conceptual framework used to describe the principles. If I tried to use Wing Chun concepts to explain NGA, it would get confusing. However, if I knew both, I could probably make adjustments to my conceptual framework such that it could describe most of both arts without an issue. I think this applies to the Kali and Wing Chun you study. It applied, as best I recall, to the Shotokan and Judo I studied back in the mid-'80s under a single instructor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wing Chun punches and boxing punches are mixed quite effectively in JKD.

Both WC and boxing emphasizes on using both arms equally. Some CMA styles such as long fist and preying mantis emphasizes on using

- 1 long arm for offense, and
- 1 short arm for defense.

In the following punching combo, the

- right hand is used to strike 3 times.
- left hand is used to block 3 times.

This is completely opposite to the WC chain punches strategy.

 

[Flying Crane]

As I have said in other threads, it is not difficult to hurt someone, and it should not take a long time to develop some reasonable fighting ability. So even if people mix things in contradictory ways, they can still get results that support what they are doing. You don't need a superior method or amazing skills to be able to hurt someone or to fight.

This clouds the issue. If what you do seems to work, there is little reason to doubt the approach. And that's a fair assessment and is probably good enough.

However, if you want to really optimize what you are doing, then a consistent method is important. That requires closer scrutiny on the methodology and an ability to recognize where some systems may be able to mix well, while others do not.

There can be a tendency to always want to add to what you are doing. But people need to be able to judge when they are better off not adding something, or even eliminating something from their collection. Some things don't mix well, and some things, if put into a different context that does not include the foundation upon which that thing was built, lose much or all of its value.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some things don't mix well, ...

Agree! The Chinese wrestling "circle running" and Bagua "circle walking" doesn't mix well.

Both systems like to move in circle. The difference is

- Chinese wrestling moves the back leg first.
- Bagua moves the front leg first.

If you are used to move the back leg first, you will feel very uncomfortable to move your front leg first. The other way around is also true.

In the following clip, it's easy to see that he moves his front leg first. The reason is to "twist the body".

In the following clip, he moves his back leg first. The reason is to "line up his back leg with opponent's legs".

 

[wingchun100]

As I have said in other threads, it is not difficult to hurt someone, and it should not take a long time to develop some reasonable fighting ability. So even if people mix things in contradictory ways, they can still get results that support what they are doing. You don't need a superior method or amazing skills to be able to hurt someone or to fight.

This clouds the issue. If what you do seems to work, there is little reason to doubt the approach. And that's a fair assessment and is probably good enough.

However, if you want to really optimize what you are doing, then a consistent method is important. That requires closer scrutiny on the methodology and an ability to recognize where some systems may be able to mix well, while others do not.

There can be a tendency to always want to add to what you are doing. But people need to be able to judge when they are better off not adding something, or even eliminating something from their collection. Some things don't mix well, and some things, if put into a different context that does not include the foundation upon which that thing was built, lose much or all of its value.

There is an article or post somewhere on here where they talk about how to mix Aikido and Wing Chun. From what I have seen, Aikido involves more circular motions. Wing Chun is more straight line. Also, it seems like a grappling art like Judo would be a better companion because that involves using an opponent's momentum/energy, which of course Wing Chun does as well.

I hope no one takes that as me saying Aikido is bad. I'm just using that as an example of what Flying Crane discussed.

 

[drop bear]

There is an article or post somewhere on here where they talk about how to mix Aikido and Wing Chun. From what I have seen, Aikido involves more circular motions. Wing Chun is more straight line. Also, it seems like a grappling art like Judo would be a better companion because that involves using an opponent's momentum/energy, which of course Wing Chun does as well.

I hope no one takes that as me saying Aikido is bad. I'm just using that as an example of what Flying Crane discussed.

There is nothing stopping wing chun developing circular motions. It wont break wing chun. It would just mean that sometimes you would move in a circular motion and sometimes you would move in a straight line.

To cross train effectively at all you need to accept that there are limits to the concepts you are allready training. Otherwise you really aren't cross training. You are just doing the same style twice.

Seriously some people do my head in with this stuff.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is an article or post somewhere on here where they talk about how to mix Aikido and Wing Chun. From what I have seen, Aikido involves more circular motions. Wing Chun is more straight line. Also, it seems like a grappling art like Judo would be a better companion because that involves using an opponent's momentum/energy, which of course Wing Chun does as well.

I hope no one takes that as me saying Aikido is bad. I'm just using that as an example of what Flying Crane discussed.

Actually, the movements in Wing Chun look like a good mix with the circles. In NGA, we use both circles and straight lines/angles. The WC movements would add a dimension to the Aikido movements, opening new opportunities for each art.

 

[wingchun100]

Actually, the movements in Wing Chun look like a good mix with the circles. In NGA, we use both circles and straight lines/angles. The WC movements would add a dimension to the Aikido movements, opening new opportunities for each art.

Maybe so. As I admitted, I haven't seen much Aikido. There is always more to explore.

 

[O'Malley]

An existing hybrid art is a different matter, normally. The techniques are (or, at least, should be) chosen because they fit together in some useful fashion. And the principles are taught in a way that incorporates all those pieces. I think where the confusion comes in is where the principles taught seem contradictory and conflicting. It may be that viewing them a different way would remove the contradictions, and that process should already be done with a hybrid art.

If my limited experience can help, I've trained in Kaju (sifu is a 5th dan under Angel García).

It is very linear and looks like it is mainly based off kenpo (for the hand movements and principles) and eskrima (for the footwork and some drills) which were the arts Sijo Emperado was trained in. They added some techniques from jujutsu (the art my sifu had previously trained in), judo, boxing (Western and Filipino), lua (even though I've only seen nasty pressure points), etc.

But they do them from a "kenpo" point of view. For example, there is ground work and they can train to do armbars but in kaju the preferred strategy when you take an opponent to the ground is to finish him quickly by striking his face and groin. Same thing when it comes to judo throws: the kaju stylist can do them but his primary strategy will be to strike the opponent kenpo-style and if he finds himself in a position where the throw can be attempted he might go for it. It's also possible that the techniques have been modified to suit the kenpo framework as I've noticed that kote gaeshi is very different from its aikido version.

Kaju is about putting constant forward pressure, striking as many times as possible until the guy's down, checking, etc. which would conflict with the principles of boxing, judo/jujutsu or even karate, right? I think the founder made a choice about which strategy to use in combat.

 

[Darrencowan]

I was thinking of a video Dan Inosanto did where he said wing chun had "no outside game." He was talking about long-range stuff, of course. Over the last few months I thought about this statement, and it made me wonder: what style with long-range attacks would make a good hybrid with wing chun?

I don't see tae kwon do being one. In TAO OF JEET KUNE DO, Bruce Lee had some notes about savate, but I have never seen that style demonstrated so I can't say one way or the other. Lately I have been thinking that Muay Thai might be the best mix. It has long-range attacks, but it is also known as the "Art of 8 Limbs" because there are also elbow attacks. Plus Muay Thai fighters are also known for getting up close and personal by getting their opponents in "the clinch."

Anyway, it was just a thought I had about what long-range style would fit best with wing chun conceptually.

Tae Kwon Do can be very effective, it depends on the practitioner, not the style. There is a guy in the UFC who is destroying the competition with his Tae Kwon Do. Watch out for him, he recently destroyed BJJ legend and UFC hall of famer, BJ Penn. He will be the next champion and will bring much glory to the art of Tae Kwon Do!

 

[wingchun100]

Tae Kwon Do can be very effective, it depends on the practitioner, not the style. There is a guy in the UFC who is destroying the competition with his Tae Kwon Do. Watch out for him, he recently destroyed BJJ legend and UFC hall of famer, BJ Penn. He will be the next champion and will bring much glory to the art of Tae Kwon Do!

I never said TKD was not effective. I said it would not be a good hybrid with Wing Chun.

 

[Darrencowan]

I never said TKD was not effective. I said it would not be a good hybrid with Wing Chun.

Ok, sorry for my misunderstanding. Yes, I agree.

 

[wingchun100]

Then again, TKD could always be modified to be compatible with it. I guess that is the key. People might say, "Well, modify it too much and it isn't the same style." But if you are compiling it into a hybrid anyway, that becomes a moot point.

 

[wingchun100]

By "modifying" it, I mean things like leaving out any of the kicks that would disrupt your balance, like a sidekick to the head. Instead, you would modify it so that you kick no higher than the waist. Also, you would not want to do any spinning back kicks. Those can be powerful and really hurt like hell, but I personally would not use them unless my opponent was already really worn down. Same goes for the Wing Chun "straight blast," which so many people think is our "go to" move.

 

[Darrencowan]

Good point, Wing. CGM was a black belt in five styles and he says it just messed him up. I think taking the basics of another style is all you need if you're already an expert (can't ever know everything, always learning and growing) in another form.

 

[wingchun100]

I mean, some styles may need more modification than others. With TKD you would leave out high kicks. However, if you wanted to combine Wing Chun with Judo, I personally feel there would be little modification needed because both styles use an opponent's force against them instead of doing strength against strength.

 

[Darrencowan]

I kind of feel that way with Wing Chung and Sanchin Ryu, both very close distance striking. Of course, there are some movements I really like and the philosophy, of as we've talked about, feeling energy.

 

[drop bear]

By "modifying" it, I mean things like leaving out any of the kicks that would disrupt your balance, like a sidekick to the head. Instead, you would modify it so that you kick no higher than the waist. Also, you would not want to do any spinning back kicks. Those can be powerful and really hurt like hell, but I personally would not use them unless my opponent was already really worn down. Same goes for the Wing Chun "straight blast," which so many people think is our "go to" move.

You would shock the hell out of people if you suddenly whipped out a spinning kick as part of your chun though.

Otherwise those sort of high deceptive kicks is where tkd is dominant in the striking world. So if you were going to use tkd. Those kicks would be the ones you use.