"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

Seriously? You still don't know what everyone is talking about?

Ever think that maybe someone just wants to make sure they're talking about the same thing when they reply?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Whatever scrub.....

Entirely unnecessary. Let's keep it civil.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't know if that was me or not. But I have long maintained, and written about many times.....that I think the biomechanics you use to generate power or send and receive force....the "engine" so to speak....is what identifies a martial art at the core level. Once you stop using the "engine", then you are no longer doing that specific martial art. That's why....even though many techniques and concepts are shared...Wing Chun and JKD are different arts. They use a different power base.

Interesting. Remind me, which arts do you have a background in, KPM? I'm noticing a difference in concept, and wondering if it comes from a different background.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Doing Wing Chun.

So, when you're doing Wing Chun, it's Wing Chun?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What would "Winch Chun mode" be?

I just noticed I referred to "Winch Chun". This sounds like a redneck version of Wing Chun, involving 4-wheel drive trucks.

 

[Transk53]

So, when you're doing Wing Chun, it's Wing Chun?

Sorry, you have to forgive me, I am a little bit of an idiot when trying to convey things. I was just thinking about the power generation in Wing Chun. Seems linear and inside the box. Generate power differently, step out the box and it is not Wing Chun power generation. I'm probably wrong on that, but thats how I saw the post by Wingchun100. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry, you have to forgive me, I am a little bit of an idiot when trying to convey things. I was just thinking about the power generation in Wing Chun. Seems linear and inside the box. Generate power differently, step out the box and it is not Wing Chun power generation. I'm probably wrong on that, but thats how I saw the post by Wingchun100. Sorry for the confusion.

That makes more sense, my friend.

 

[Steve]

Which real evidence do you mean?

In this case, I'm referring to the 'with my own eyes' evidence that the video of the altercation between William Cheung and Emin Boztep.

As for the Pumpkins and Mailer examples...I mean, maybe that was not the best comparison because then we are talking about matters of opinion. I can say the Pumpkins deliver, but the person next to me could say they suck because it is subjective, whereas in martial arts...either a technique works, or it doesn't.

Actually, I think it's a brilliant example, because it shines a spotlight on the distinction between objective and subjective evaluation of evidence. I don't like the Smashing Pumpkins, in general. But I can objectively determine that they create music... even if I don't personally enjoy that music. I mean, sure, you can take it to the extreme (e.g., "That's not music; that's noise!") But it's possible to create an objective metric with which to gauge whether it is a real demonstration of musical technique and the application of musicality.

In the same way, there can be an objective evaluation of writing skills, or any other skill. Sure, there is an element of art to writing, but there is also a foundation of skill that can be demonstrated. So, whether you like a particular poem or not subjectively, you can objectively evaluate the skill of the poet if you understand the medium well enough to apply the right metric.

And that leads to application of fighting technique. In this video, we saw an actual fight between two very high level WC practitioners. And in that video, we can objectively see very little application of fighting skill. In fact, the performance is about what I would expect from two untrained people.

 

[Steve]

*yawn* I'm getting bored. Can someone start replying with some intelligence again, please?

By the way, not for nothing but I HAVE seen that video. However, that doesn't mean it wasn't possible that Steve was referring to a DIFFERENT video. Check out YouTube and you might notice they have more than one on there.

Ummm ... that's not very respectful, either, Steve. Come on, man. Walk the talk.

To clarify (I'm not completely sure you're referring to me), the video to which I referred was the fight between Emin Boztep and William Cheung, which is the only example I'm aware of that is an actual demonstration of skill in the context of a fight, rather than a demonstration of what a fight might look like.

 

[geezer]

...the video to which I referred was the fight between Emin Boztep and William Cheung, which is the only example I'm aware of that is an actual demonstration of skill in the context of a fight, rather than a demonstration of what a fight might look like.

Yeah Steve, what Steve says is correct. But that's not to fault Emin who definitely could fight. But Steve is quite right in saying that we don't have other videos available of Emin actually fighting. The problem is that there really is no accepted venue for testing WC/WT/VT.

Furthermore, building a rep and capitalizing on hero-worship is about the only way to make money in TCMA. Even if you are the real deal, in real fights or competition you are bound to lose eventually. That ruins your rep and your career. You can bet that was on Emin's mind back when the Gracie challenge was talked about. No purse to speak of, and if he lost, his whole career in WT shot. That's not a good business proposition at all. --Steve.

Hey, isn't it amazing how many smart guys named Steve are on this forum!

 

[drop bear]

Yeah Steve, what Steve says is correct. But that's not to fault Emin who definitely could fight. But Steve is quite right in saying that we don't have other videos available of Emin actually fighting. The problem is that there really is no accepted venue for testing WC/WT/VT.

Furthermore, building a rep and capitalizing on hero-worship is about the only way to make money in TCMA. Even if you are the real deal, in real fights or competition you are bound to lose eventually. That ruins your rep and your career. You can bet that was on Emin's mind back when the Gracie challenge was talked about. No purse to speak of, and if he lost, his whole career in WT shot. That's not a good business proposition at all. --Steve.

Hey, isn't it amazing how many smart guys named Steve are on this forum!

So we found another example of him fighting?

 

[drop bear]

I don't get it. If a member is on ignore, then why is it I get an email notification from Taptalk showing me what they said?

I don't care to read any replies from people who cannot be respectful. You know who you are.

You should probably get that fixed.

 

[KPM]

Interesting. Remind me, which arts do you have a background in, KPM? I'm noticing a difference in concept, and wondering if it comes from a different background.

Primary foundation is Wing Chun.....I've studied Ip Man Wing Chun, Traditional Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, and Tang Yik Weng Chun. The most depth in Pin Sun. I've also done some FMA in the past...Panantukan and knife work. JKD is the newest thing I am studying. I had dabbled in some JKD here and there in the past but nothing in-depth until recently. I'm finding that it actually messes the best with TWC. So I have been going back and reviving those forms and past skills that I learned. When you look across these things, there is definitely an identifiable "engine" that makes the different arts more distinct.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Primary foundation is Wing Chun.....I've studied Ip Man Wing Chun, Traditional Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, and Tang Yik Weng Chun. The most depth in Pin Sun. I've also done some FMA in the past...Panantukan and knife work. JKD is the newest thing I am studying. I had dabbled in some JKD here and there in the past but nothing in-depth until recently. I'm finding that it actually messes the best with TWC. So I have been going back and reviving those forms and past skills that I learned. When you look across these things, there is definitely an identifiable "engine" that makes the different arts more distinct.

The reason I asked is that, though we talk about power generation in striking, I've never heard a JMA described through its primary method of power generation. When someone says that changing the "engine" changes the art, that's foreign to me. I could show you at least 4 different engines within the NGA I teach, because that's not what defines it. It's an interesting difference in concept - something I'd love to spend some time tinkering with. There's probably some "lightbulb" moments to be found in looking at things through the other concept.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

changing the "engine" changes the art, ...

If you are a WC guy and if you believe that you are not suppose to do

- boxing hook punch,
- prey mantis hay-maker,
- long fist back reverse punch,
- MT roundhouse kick,
- TKD side kick,
- wrestling single leg,
- Judo hip throw,
- BJJ side mount,
- ...,

there is something serious wrong there. The style of WC should be just a starting point. It should never be the ending point.

 

[KPM]

The reason I asked is that, though we talk about power generation in striking, I've never heard a JMA described through its primary method of power generation. When someone says that changing the "engine" changes the art, that's foreign to me. I could show you at least 4 different engines within the NGA I teach, because that's not what defines it. It's an interesting difference in concept - something I'd love to spend some time tinkering with. There's probably some "lightbulb" moments to be found in looking at things through the other concept.

Just think how different the "engine" is between Aikido and Karate. That is where it is the most obvious. Then think about "classical" Karate and its modern derivative...kickboxing. Also very different. Now, in a hybrid method as you have described your art as being...I can see there being more than one "engine" involved as you switch between distinctive aspects of your style.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are a WC guy and if you believe that you are not suppose to do

- boxing hook punch,
- prey mantis hay-maker,
- long fist back reverse punch,
- MT roundhouse kick,
- TKD side kick,
- wrestling single leg,
- Judo hip throw,
- BJJ side mount,
- ...,

there is something serious wrong there. The style of WC should be just a starting point. It should never be the ending point.

I like that view. That's how I view my own progression. I see things in terms of my primary art, and everything gets integrated toward those principles. If something doesn't fit with those principles or creates conflict/confusing against them, I probably won't integrate it. If I do integrate it, I'll eventually probably teach it to experienced NGA students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just think how different the "engine" is between Aikido and Karate. That is where it is the most obvious. Then think about "classical" Karate and its modern derivative...kickboxing. Also very different. Now, in a hybrid method as you have described your art as being...I can see there being more than one "engine" involved as you switch between distinctive aspects of your style.

Here's the thing for me. In NGA, we use strikes that are derived primarily from Shotokan. We use a similar power generation in those strikes. And that's a very different method of developing power than we use in throws. For me, I can see at least 3 distinct methods of power generation within NGA's core. One is linear, one is circular, and one is from the ground up.

 

[wingchun100]

Yeah Steve, what Steve says is correct. But that's not to fault Emin who definitely could fight. But Steve is quite right in saying that we don't have other videos available of Emin actually fighting. The problem is that there really is no accepted venue for testing WC/WT/VT.

Furthermore, building a rep and capitalizing on hero-worship is about the only way to make money in TCMA. Even if you are the real deal, in real fights or competition you are bound to lose eventually. That ruins your rep and your career. You can bet that was on Emin's mind back when the Gracie challenge was talked about. No purse to speak of, and if he lost, his whole career in WT shot. That's not a good business proposition at all. --Steve.

Hey, isn't it amazing how many smart guys named Steve are on this forum!

I am not sure which Steve you mean. Maybe I should be referred to strictly as my user name or at least Steve-100.

 

[wingchun100]

The reason I asked is that, though we talk about power generation in striking, I've never heard a JMA described through its primary method of power generation. When someone says that changing the "engine" changes the art, that's foreign to me. I could show you at least 4 different engines within the NGA I teach, because that's not what defines it. It's an interesting difference in concept - something I'd love to spend some time tinkering with. There's probably some "lightbulb" moments to be found in looking at things through the other concept.

One primary difference can be seen in one of Emin's videos. Again, I know many are not fans here, but he talks about karate punches being generated with the hip whereas in Wing Chun your mechanics involve generating from your roots all the way up.