"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Hazardi172]

So you don't step in when you are too far away to land the punch? And again, how do you punch from far away as you stated before?

Movement of the body is part of the punch, as already discussed

 

[Hazardi172]

Ok Guy. No problem.

I am not your friend Guy, very sorry

 

[geezer]

The VT punch can strike from close in to far out. You don't need a different strike. This is why we work so hard to perfect the punch ...the punch is the primary weapon in all situations!

Hazard, I practice Yip Man VT ...but not the WSL lineage, so my perspective is a bit different. In the VT I train we work very hard at perfecting our punch, developing elbow power, and learning to punch with the body, not just the arm. But compared with long-bridge systems, our VT punch has a more specialized range. We are good at short-power, but since we do not extend our arm like long-bridge systems or blade our body like the JKD guys, we use our footwork to get into optimal range for punching.

At longer ranges, we use a longer range weapon, such as a kick to simultaneously attack and close. At very close , clinching ranges we often use elbows to simultaneously attack and create space for punches. The punching range is where we prefer to be, but I find your statement that you can punch from any range ...without stepping(?) to be confusing. Please clarify!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As explained above, the VT punch doesn't have an ideal range. It is equally effective from close in to far out.This is becuse it doesn't rely upon rotation or other upper body momentum in order to work. It is as effective from almost zero extension to maximum extension. It lacks an ideal range by way of design.

Actually, you just defined its ideal range. I assume that like any other strike it can be used just outside that range (by slight over-extension) or just inside that range (the "almost zero" you mentioned), where it will have less power than within its prime range. There will be other sacrifices in some of those cases (the over-extension also sacrifices some structure), so practitioners may not choose to use some of those ranges, and may instead choose to stick to that ideal range.

The VT punch can strike from close in to far out because the body movement is part of the punch. You don't need a different strike. This is why we work so hard to perfect the punch

Of course we can also kick, faak, elbow, knee, palm. But the punch is the primary weapon in all situations!

The kick, faak, elbow, knee, and palm are the different strikes I spoke of. In some systems, they would also take that single punch and describe it as more than one, to discuss the differences in how it works at its extremes. That's semantics, only, but it may help to know that in future discussions. So, for instance, I may teach a "short vertical fist" and a "long vertical fist" to my students. They are the same strike, but different points can be emphasized at those extremes. There's no point along the continuum between the two where I could draw a line and say, "That's the long version there, and this is the short version here."

I hope I have helped to clear up your confusion and that you are now closer to understanding a bit about the VT system . Let me know if you need me to explain more.

Those are informative points. Thank you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The VT punch can strike from close in to far out because the body movement is part of the punch. You don't need a different strike. This is why we work so hard to perfect the punch

In order to strike "far out", your

- striking hand,
- striking shoulder,
- chest,
- back shoulder,

should all be lined up in a perfect straight line. The training is to rotate one arm forward while rotate the other arm backward at the same time in fast speed. You then switch sides. I don't know there is WC training like this.

 

[KPM]

Movement of the body is part of the punch, as already discussed

You didn't answer my questions. Just like Guy...ask a lot of questions but answer very few!

 

[wingchun100]

You didn't answer my questions. Just like Guy...ask a lot of questions but answer very few!

Oh, wait...do we think this is "Guy in disguise?"

 

[Hazardi172]

Hazard, I practice Yip Man VT ...but not the WSL lineage, so my perspective is a bit different. In the VT I train we work very hard at perfecting our punch, developing elbow power, and learning to punch with the body, not just the arm. But compared with long-bridge systems, our VT punch has a more specialized range. We are good at short-power, but since we do not extend our arm like long-bridge systems or blade our body like the JKD guys, we use our footwork to get into optimal range for punching.

At longer ranges, we use a longer range weapon, such as a kick to simultaneously attack and close. At very close , clinching ranges we often use elbows to simultaneously attack and create space for punches.

Hi Geezer, sounds great. Good to hear how your wing chun works.

I find your statement that you can punch from any range ...without stepping(?) to be confusing. Please clarify!

I didn't say to punch without stepping. The step is part of the punch, not to get into range to punch. The punch is with the moving body.

 

[Hazardi172]

Actually, you just defined its ideal range. I assume that like any other strike it can be used just outside that range (by slight over-extension) or just inside that range (the "almost zero" you mentioned), where it will have less power than within its prime range. There will be other sacrifices in some of those cases (the over-extension also sacrifices some structure), so practitioners may not choose to use some of those ranges, and may instead choose to stick to that ideal range.

The punch works from elbow touching body, so no internal sub optimal range. Also no external sub optimal range as it ceases to function beyond maximum extension. However we are only talking about the arm movement here, not the punch. The punch also requires the momentum of the moving body, and the body is what you hit with rather than the arm. The step is part of the punch, meaning that it can be used from any meaningful range in fighting.

Those are informative points. Thank you.

Glad to share, thanks

 

[Transk53]

The punch works from elbow touching body, so no internal sub optimal range. Also no external sub optimal range as it ceases to function beyond maximum extension. However we are only talking about the arm movement here, not the punch. The punch also requires the momentum of the moving body, and the body is what you hit with rather than the arm. The step is part of the punch, meaning that it can be used from any meaningful range in fighting.



Glad to share, thanks

Are you talking about boxing here or VT?

Sorry, WSLVT.

 

[wtxs]

Should I assume that standup grappling is the aim of your wing chun? This is something new to me.

5086"]Yeah, trapping is sometimes seen as a close cousin of Chin-Na and sometimes goes so far as a very quick standing grappling.[/QUOTE]

I think you are reading way to much into what Juany had said ... don't assume of what he meant. By your assumption, what you had inferred is some type of grappling with striking art and not WC.

We need to get back on track with the OP subject.

 

[geezer]

Hi Geezer, sounds great. Good to hear how your wing chun works. I didn't say to punch without stepping. The step is part of the punch, not to get into range to punch. The punch is with the moving body.

Thanks for the clarification. This makes sense. Before I thought you were talking just about the arm ...and the VT punch I know, delivered with the shoulders square to the target, is a shorter punch than used in many other systems which throw the shoulder into the punch. But, as you are talking about the punch with stepping, we are talking the same language after all.

 

[Dylan9d]

My last question @Hazardi172

How long have you been training VT now? Just curious what your experience is.....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The step is part of the punch, meaning that it can be used from any meaningful range in fighting.

Let's ignore the body rotation, just look at the footwork (step). In order to punch your right hand, you can step in your right leg into

1. bow arrow stance.
2. golden rooster stance.
3. stealing step (drop your golden rooster raising leg behind and forward your standing leg).

For the farther reach, 3 > 2 > 1

IMO, all 1, 2, 3 "strike far out" footwork are not emphasized in the WC system. In other words, compare WC to the other CMA systems, WC doesn't emphasize enough on "strike far out".

 

[KPM]

The step is part of the punch, meaning that it can be used from any meaningful range in fighting.

Sorry, that's just semantics. You're still saying the same thing we have been saying. You are moving in with footwork until close enough for the punch to land. That punch isn't going to land from several feet away without you "moving your body" (stepping in with footwork) to the "sweet spot" where you are close enough for that punch to land. That is still closing the distance or range. If you start where you are close enough to land a kick but not close enough to land a punch without moving in (kicking range), then you are going to have to move into a range where you are close enough for the punch to contact (punching range). That's just a simple fact of physics whether you want to use that terminology or not.

 

[Juany118]

It might not be in VT, but what if your opponent isn't playing your game?

This is the point. Maybe we are odd balls but I study Martial Arts to defend myself and others. If I was still the History teacher I would be pedaling my bicycle every hour available.

Sorry, that's just semantics. You're still saying the same thing we have been saying. You are moving in with footwork until close enough for the punch to land. That punch isn't going to land from several feet away without you "moving your body" (stepping in with footwork) to the "sweet spot" where you are close enough for that punch to land. That is still closing the distance or range. If you start where you are close enough to land a kick but not close enough to land a punch without moving in (kicking range), then you are going to have to move into a range where you are close enough for the punch to contact (punching range). That's just a simple fact of physics whether you want to use that terminology or not.

I am currently going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume he isn't trolling. That said it seems like he was programmed on a specific track and, it seems, to not actually breakdown how you fight in an analytical way for further study.

This works fine if you are always facing someone programmed in the same way. In that case it comes down to who is mentally and physically superior along with who has the better programming. It starts to breakdown however when you face someone who is programmed differently. As an example, recognizing the existence of the sweet spots isn't just a matter of knowing where you are strong but it also lets you see where you are weak. Heck, it's not even a matter of yourself. In knowing sweet spots exist you can then see where your opponent's sweet spot and weak spots are, whether they be in the art itself or the psychology of the opponent. Avoiding where your opponent is strong and striking where he is weak is Art of War 101.

 

[Hazardi172]

Thanks for the clarification. This makes sense. Before I thought you were talking just about the arm ...and the VT punch I know, delivered with the shoulders square to the target, is a shorter punch than used in many other systems which throw the shoulder into the punch. But, as you are talking about the punch with stepping, we are talking the same language after all.

I am not sure I am talking the same language as everyone, since previous discussion was all about fighting at a "trapping range" where we can do things like direct applications of the Lap Sau drill and enter into grappling.

Also the punch with stepping is the punch. The step is part of the punch because it moves the body and this momentum is what is used against the opponent, i.e. we hit with our body. This integral step is why the VT punch is not range limited in terms of any realistic fighting range.

 

[Hazardi172]

IMO, all 1, 2, 3 "strike far out" footwork are not emphasized in the WC system. In other words, compare WC to the other CMA systems, WC doesn't emphasize enough on "strike far out".

Try WSL VT, you will see a lot of emphasis on stepping

 

[Hazardi172]

My last question @Hazardi172

How long have you been training VT now? Just curious what your experience is.....

Hi Dylan, I have been training about 13 years now

 

[Hazardi172]

Are you talking about boxing here or VT?

Sorry, WSLVT.

Hi Transk53, talking about WSL VT here