No contact training

[JowGaWolf]

I don't think it's practical to develop combative functionality without working with other bodies.

You are being too kind. It's impossible to develop martial art combative functionality without using contact.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I can see considerable benefits in fitness etc from this and it seems more clubs are going down a limited contact/ no contact route, perhaps they attract a different clientele if they remove as much of the fighting element as possible, I've seen people get quite upset just holding a pad for others to punch as its a) scary and b) hurts a bit or maybe its an insurance/ liability thing.
there is a rise in boxercise which is really the same thing and kickboxing using a bag only, then there is no contact football and tag rugby as well. People just don't like pain I guess

Many people don't like the idea of getting hit. They just assume the worse about being hit. I watched my wife go through the same issue. She thought that she was going to be seriously injured if she sparred. Now she knows the punches aren't going to kill her and that no one is trying to punch her head off her shoulders. But there are still students who just fear and dread being hit. Unfortunately it's like you say. A lot of clubs are going down the path of "we don't hit each other" which is crazy to me unless they are only doing it for exercise, which at that point they should no longer refer to has a martial art class. Boxercise is more appropriate naming than Boxing. Kenpo Fitness would be better than claiming to be just Kenpo. If the students from the original post think they are learning self-defense then, they are being mislead. If they know they are in there just for the fitness then nothing is wrong.

 

[CB Jones]

Well, where do you want to experience getting "rocked" for the first time.

On the street fighting to protect yourself? Or in the Dojo in a controlled environment?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well, where do you want to experience getting "rocked" for the first time.

On the street fighting to protect yourself? Or in the Dojo in a controlled environment?

Lol. definitely in the school. It doesn't take much to be "rocked" so I rather experience when someone isn't fully loading up on the punch lol. In street fight, being rocked usually means that it's in the context that someone threw a punch as hard as they could with the intention of exploding your face lol. I actually tell students that the best time to make a mistake is during sparring, because in a real fight we can't afford many mistakes.

 

[marques]

No contact, no martial. Controlled contact is what I advise, either for basic techniques on a partner or sparring. Full power on bags and the like. Training in the air... may be a starting point, at best.

 

[JR 137]

Agreed. But do you have some parts of your training that are full contact?

For instance, I don't generally allow small-bone/small joint locks in sparring/randori (some are allowable, because they have a large range of motion). We drill those differently, and sometimes simply acknowledge them in randori when we know the person had started one then abandoned it. We absolutely allow open-hand strikes, within reason, just as we do most other strikes. Strikes to the neck and back of the head aren't allowed with any force. Throws are generally full-contact, though not full-force (so, no adding downward force to a hip throw, for instance). Strikes to the back are allowed, but pulled (if you get hit there in sparring, you messed up something awful).

So, some things are kept full-contact, others are sacrificed for safety. And students can call their own safety level. So, if a student doesn't want bruises that week, they can call for lighter sparring or limit targets as they wish.

Full contact is a pretty broad statement. We wear dipped foam head, hand, and foot gear. How hard we hit varies on who's in front of me. There's several guys and ladies that I can hit pretty hard and expect the same in return. And it'll also depend on the night. There's several people that I'm very conscientious of my level of contact with. Not everyone's looking to mix it up every night. After a while, we get a good feel of how hard each individual is willing to go.

A lot of us came from Kyokushin or a very closely related offshoot. We've "been there, done that" if you will. I think it's a great balance currently; we're not all out every time, yet we're still getting pretty close to that level of contact when we want it. And we don't take turns kicking each other in the thighs and punching each other's ribs for conditioning like we did in other organizations. Most of us are getting too old for that. I'm a little younger than a lot of the adults at 41.

Our CI lets us go as hard as we want, provided we're under control and both willing to take a hit.

Regarding open hand strikes - we do certain ones during free sparring, just no obvious ones like knife hand to the neck/throat, etc. I guess I made a blanket statement earlier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Full contact is a pretty broad statement. We wear dipped foam head, hand, and foot gear. How hard we hit varies on who's in front of me. There's several guys and ladies that I can hit pretty hard and expect the same in return. And it'll also depend on the night. There's several people that I'm very conscientious of my level of contact with. Not everyone's looking to mix it up every night. After a while, we get a good feel of how hard each individual is willing to go.

A lot of us came from Kyokushin or a very closely related offshoot. We've "been there, done that" if you will. I think it's a great balance currently; we're not all out every time, yet we're still getting pretty close to that level of contact when we want it. And we don't take turns kicking each other in the thighs and punching each other's ribs for conditioning like we did in other organizations. Most of us are getting too old for that. I'm a little younger than a lot of the adults at 41.

Our CI lets us go as hard as we want, provided we're under control and both willing to take a hit.

Regarding open hand strikes - we do certain ones during free sparring, just no obvious ones like knife hand to the neck/throat, etc. I guess I made a blanket statement earlier.

That's about how I look at it, JR. The most effective training - from a short-term, fight-based focus - probably involves a lot more hard contact than I prefer. Given the shambles parts of my body are in already, I doubt more, harder contact would have been a good long-term idea for me, and I keep that in mind in my teaching. I just also believe there has to be some level of solid contact/force used at points in training. Resistance/contact/force aids in developing realistic technique, as well as being prepared for what may happen to you in an attack/fight. A bit more is probably better, until it starts creating injuries - long-term or short-term - that interfere with life.

 

[jobo]

That's about how I look at it, JR. The most effective training - from a short-term, fight-based focus - probably involves a lot more hard contact than I prefer. Given the shambles parts of my body are in already, I doubt more, harder contact would have been a good long-term idea for me, and I keep that in mind in my teaching. I just also believe there has to be some level of solid contact/force used at points in training. Resistance/contact/force aids in developing realistic technique, as well as being prepared for what may happen to you in an attack/fight. A bit more is probably better, until it starts creating injuries - long-term or short-term - that interfere with life.

agree, this notion that being pummelled in creases you fighting abilities is far fetched, you get no gain from being punched or kicked a lot, aside from the increasing you pain thresh hold. Though you can pick up long perm injuries and weakness. you don't see decent boxers preparing for a fight by having some guy knock 7bells out of them

such benefits as there is ,is learning not to get hit, and you don't need a full power kick to do that, what you are aiming for is less contact, because you have moved, not more

 

[Gerry Seymour]

agree, this notion that being pummelled in creases you fighting abilities is far fetched, you get no gain from being punched or kicked a lot, aside from the increasing you pain thresh hold. Though you can pick up long perm injuries and weakness. you don't see decent boxers preparing for a fight by having some guy knock 7bells out of them

such benefits as there is ,is learning not to get hit, and you don't need a full power kick to do that, what you are aiming for is less contact, because you have moved, not more

I do think it's useful to have occasionally been hit hard enough for it to matter - just so that feeling's not a surprise in a fight. Beyond that, speed and intent of your partner in training is more important than how hard they hit you.

 

[jobo]

I do think it's useful to have occasionally been hit hard enough for it to matter - just so that feeling's not a surprise in a fight. Beyond that, speed and intent of your partner in training is more important than how hard they hit you.

yes pain aversion is a good learning tool, it just doesn't need to knock you out or break a rib to work

 

[RTKDCMB]

To train in a martial art you need to hit something. Even if you do non-contact sparring you still need to hit a pad or a bag, or something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To train in a martial art you need to hit something. Even if you do non-contact sparring you still need to hit a pad or a bag, or something.

And if it's a grappling art, you need to throw/pin/lock someone.

 

[Balrog]

So I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because it's genuinely not I'm posting this simply for discussion. But a friend of mine who trains at my old kenpo school told me they've started a new thing now where they don't do any techniques on the body everything is done in the air. So basically it's all forms, then doing technique in the that would be every class. Since they never do fitness, or pads or sparring either.

I just wondered what people's opinions on it are. I won't say mine either way for now as I don't want to look biased since it genuinely not that I just want to know what people think.

Nothing terribly wrong with it in general. However, if there is no practice on heavy bags or shields as noted above, there is a problem. People need to learn how to control their bodies when a full power technique makes impact. If they lose their balance, they'll probably lose a fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People need to learn how to control their bodies when a full power technique makes impact.

I often refer to hitting the pad and heavy bag as impact training. I've seen many wrists collapse as a result of students not conditioning for impact and maintaining the structure required for the impact.