So people still believe this?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 28, 2020.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Let me break down just how dumb this belief is (and I've seen it elsewhere, and for whatever reason its coming back);

    1. There was another grappler in the first UFC, and he wasn't some chump.
    2. There's nothing wrong with wanting to promote/market your martial art.
    3. Zero fighters have ever come forward to say that any of the fights were fixed.
    4. It's quite clear on video that Royce didn't use his belt to submit Shamrock.
    5. Bjj's prevalence in MMA almost 30 years later proves that the Gracie win wasn't a trick or a fluke.
    6. Royce wearing a gi actually made him MORE vulnerable in his fights.

    Wallace sounds bitter as hell. I don't know why he's bitter, but he's definitely got some sour grapes going on.

    The first UFC was one of the most pivotal moments in modern MA history. I think it's time for some people to just accept it.
     
  2. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Why do you care? Just go do what you like to do, right?
     
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  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Just like there's some MMA fan boys out there, there are also some BJJ haters. The UFC was a fixed point in time where many of those fighters rarely fought people outside of their own system.
    [​IMG]

    The fights were taken by people who were willing to fight in what was considered to be a brutal way of fighting. There were many protests against it. The fighters who participated weren't the best fighters in their in their system. They were just the ones who were willing to participate. Jason DeLulcia had 33 wins and 21 losses. The fighters weren't the best fighters in their system. The best were probably satisfied by making money with what they were doing and they weren't going to mess that up.

    These are some of the top boxers during 1993. Non of those guys were going to give up boxing for UFC. No one in their right mind would.
    • Pernell Whitaker.
    • Julio Cesar Chavez.
    • James Toney.
    • Michael Carbajal.
    • Orlando Canizales.
    • Evander Holyfield.
    • Ricardo Lopez.
    • Roy Jones Jr.
    So all of those people saying that it was fix have to keep in mind that that the best of the best just weren't going to participate. Those who were the best in their field made too much money doing what they were doing and probably could care less about who is the best fighter. People who did participated were probably looking for fame or out to prove something and that alone attracts a totally different type of fighter.

    Were the Gracies out to make a name for themselves? Yep Of course.
    Did Gracie fight the best? Of course not
    Does it matter that Gracie didn't fight the best? Nope. it never matters, Everything is about perception. Just like the MMA vs Kung Fu Masters. Are these guys fighting the best Kung Fu practitioners? Nope. and they even admit that they aren't fighting the Best Kung Fu Practitioners. There whole fight plan is to fight Fake Kung Fu Masters.

    When it comes to fighting in something like UFC. Your skill sets are going to show, unless you take a dive. The BJJ haters just need to quit hating because log after UFC 1 fighters were still being put in arm bars and chokes and none of those guys were faking.
     
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  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I care because people are spreading lies and falsehoods, and it leads to the propagation of nonsense that unfortunately still infects the martial arts as a whole to this day.
     
  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This will always happen. It happens with Karate, Kung Fu, and now the Gracies are getting it. The only thing you can do is try to be the best representation of your system. The people who need to know the truth already do. Everyone else who thinks otherwise probably don't train BJJ
     
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  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    To be fair, Karate and Kung Fu sort of deserve it for all the tom-foolery some of their exponents have been pushing over the years. This guy's channel is just another example of it.
     
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  7. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

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    Now, that's ironic: Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

    As for the video, I don't know how much of what Wallace said is true, nor his motivations. It does not change the fact that, today, BJJ is a popular martial art which produced a lot of good MMA fighters.
     
  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Not that's irony.
     
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  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Not even close.

    Wallace literally said there wasn't a wrestler in UFC 1, then about 2 minutes later started talking about Ken Shamrock not being allowed to wear wrestling shoes.
     
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I agree. It's not irony at all.
     
  11. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It should also be pointed out, in fairness, that Royce was not the best BJJ practitioner around either. He was very good, but he didn't have much of a tournament record nor was he the best in the family at challenge matches. If you had to compare, I would say he entered UFC 1 as skilled in BJJ as Art Jimmerson was in boxing (29-5, IBC title holder) or Gerard Gordeau was in karate/savate (27-4, multiple years Dutch karate champion, multiple years European Savate champion, 1992 World Savate champion).

    The real competitive edge that the Gracies had in the beginning of modern MMA is that they had experience in full contact challenge matches against practitioners of other styles (boxing, karate, kung fu, wrestling judo, etc), but their opponents had no experience fighting against BJJ. That was enough to allow for several years of dominance until their skills were no longer a mystery.
     
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  12. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    What a bunch of bullship by Wallace....

    There's two "worsts" here. The second one is that interview with Wallace. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in many years.

    The first was the announcing by Bill Wallace, Kathy Long and Jim Brown at UFC 1. To this day, the worst job announcing any event I've ever seen. It was awful. THAT'S why you weren't invited back, Bill. And I'm sure he knows that.

    He's also not even correct on the rules in UFC one. Biting and fish hooking weren't allowed either, although Gordeau DID bite Royce Gracie in their match. He doesn't even deny it.

    As for the fighters being hand picked.....they couldn't get any fighters to fight in UFC . All these so called fighters wanted no part of it.
    Can't say I blame them, I'd be scared to death, too.
     
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  13. Graywalker

    Graywalker Blue Belt

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    It is not realistic to say that BJJ dominated the martial arts in UFC 1... the best fighters of the time, turned it down. By the 3rd, wrestlers started coming in and pretty much showed although BJJ was good, it wasn't really all that domenating, .really if you take out the ability to pick someone up and slam them down to break a hold...it is pretty much makes the argument null.
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    1. Royce Gracie wasn't a professional fighter, and its not the Gracie's fault that pro fighters turned it down. The challenge was there to accept.

    2. There were wrestlers in the first and second UFC. I would argue that the wrestlers in UFC1 and 2 had an advantage on Royce since they were larger and Royce was wearing a gi which gave the wrestlers better grip opportunities.

    3. You were allowed to pick someone up and slam them in the first UFCs. You're allowed to do that NOW in the UFC. The reality is that it isn't easy to pick someone up while in their guard, especially after your posture is broken, as was the case for many in Royce's guard in the first UFCs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
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  15. Graywalker

    Graywalker Blue Belt

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    Meh...after watching Frank Shamrock in a a promotional fight for the UFC and a few others,(live) and seeing the obvious b.s. I lost interest..

    I will correct myself he did fight Ken Shamrock, and barely won. But yes he did win...sure. As time went on it didn't dominate and barely did in the beginning.

    But really I have zero interest in UFC...and I do not wish to go down the rabbit hole that is your reasoning.
     
  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Once we got to guys like Dan Severn. He probably has a point.
     
  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Your personal opinion of Shamrock's skills are irrelevant. The point is that he was a wrestler who understand grappling quite well (he beat his first opponent with a leg lock), he still lost in pretty dominant fashion.

    By the time we got to the third and fourth UFCs, you had people begin to study what the Gracies were doing, and starting to counter them. However, that isn't a weakness of Bjj, that's Bjj having to be learned in order to be competitive. Nothing in MMA has changed to this day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Royce beat Dan Severn via Triangle at UFC 4.
     
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  19. Graywalker

    Graywalker Blue Belt

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    Sure, as is your opinions about actual combat.

    I will say that the Gracie's did show the importance of escaping the ground game in actual combat, but really that is about it.

    But BJJ is not the dominate ground game, this has been seen many times against other wrestlers. It just has, and as I would state that some questionable decisions were made during those first few UFC's.

    But that is just my personal observation and is not subjective to your input.
     
  20. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Watch this;



    This is Royce Gracie vs Dan Severn at UFC 4. Severn was a high level wrestler with over 75 lbs on Gracie, and Gracie beat him with a Triangle choke.

    Please tell me again how BJJ isn't the dominant ground game in MMA. It literally grinds a superior wrestler's top pressure to a halt. If Bjj isn't the dominant ground game in that sport, what is? Pretty much every fighter entering the Octagon needs it to be competitive.123
     

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