Ninjutsu on Discovery Channel

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Shogun, May 25, 2004.

  1. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    Absolutely, how could anyone take offense at such commentary ;) (I say sarcastically),

    I don't know if it is any more ridiculous than watching a class full of non-Orientals bowing and using Oriental language and following Oriental customs, wearing adopted Oriental costumes, or arguing on the internet over what is or is not authentic, effective or practical when the majority of folks here are not professional martial artists (LEO/Military...) but simply enthusiasts and serious practitioners..... come on. How is such a comment productive?

    Besides, if someone was paying me to reenact/demonstrate a part of something I love doing anyway, I would be willing to be laughed at all the way to the bank. What could be better than getting paid to do what you enjoy?
     
  2. TKDman

    TKDman Guest

    Aww come on you know parts of that TV show were funny. Your just holding it in.
     
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  3. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    No I don't. Neither do the number of special forces, law enforcement and civilians who have found this 'funny stuff' useful and meaningful. It started out as 'wanna be-ism' to a degree but some of the stuff that I got from my big 80's Ninja Movie inspired exploration into SKH's books actually was really useful while I was in Basic training and in 13 years of service. Some of the basic martial/mental aspects of the training have been VERY useful in my class management and teaching techniques.

    If I were to comment on how funny I thought TKD'ists look (and I took TKD so this COULD be based on direct experience - not outside prejudice) while you all move like lock and block robots, blindly mimicing some archaic standard of form perfection and skill that is really a confusion of a training approach of "over skill standards" where people practice to be fast and flexible enough to kick at head level so that waist level and lower kicks are a piece of cake BUT how that training practice has become the center of actual application instead....

    BTW, I don't really think this way - but it is hard not to read that statement (or your comment) without some sense of the disrespectful, negative tone. Grow up. If you don't understand it, fine. If you think it is 'funny' or 'ridiculous' then give a reason. Otherwise it is not going to accomplish anything positive.
     
  4. theletch1

    theletch1 Grandmaster

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    The stealth walking demo given during the show is no different than the way that I walk while in the woods hunting. One foot in front of the other, don't set the weight on the front foot all at once, roll from heel to ball, pause, then move the other foot. Nothing funny about that. Now, if you're referring to the quick glimpses that were given of the ninja walking with his hands under his feet...never tried it and don't think I want to. A lot of the ninja mysticism is just that, mysticism and nothing on the show that I was watching did anything to push the myths on the viewer. SKH was wearing the uniform of the style that he trains in. I would no more give him grief for that than I would expect grief for wearing my gi while in the dojo doing aikido.

    The remote viewing portion of the show was sure to draw some criticism. The paranormal side of anything, whether MA or not, is a lightning rod for debate. Me, I'm an open minded skeptic. I've never (with the exception of the occasional deja vue or the fervent belief that the woman that was killed in my home a couple decades ago is still here) experienced anything that was undeniably paranormal but don't automatically respond that anyone who believes whole heartedly in it that they're nuts.
     
  5. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    I read a long time ago that the hands under the feet walking starts out as a balance exercise but eventually turns into a method of walking quietly through heavy layers of fallen leaves. Considering stealth and night movement are big for covert operations, changing/reducing the 'human signature' of your outline against the skyline might be another benefit of the hand walking thing.

    Slide your hand into the leaves until your hand touches the ground under the layer. Place your foot on the space instead of on the leaves so that you don't crunch a crunch as you go. I read about it in, also, as a technique that LRRPS were taught according to some of the memoir books I read (Eyes of the Eagle, Force Recon Diary 1969/70, ....). It only looks funny when you don't understand the purpose.
     
  6. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Iv'e read up on some of this remote viewing stuff... years ago I worked with my Ex Wife in a metaphysical bookstore/gift shop and I read a lot of books on Magic and the occult. I know a bit about how remote viewing is done, although I have not done any myself, and it's unusual and unique... More recently, I recall reading a study online, maybe a few months ago, in fact where a remote veiwer predicted the outcome of a roulette wheel to land on Red or Black, and was accurate to the answer somthing like 98% (?) of the time.

    Chance? Maybe... but I'm willing to believe its possible to develop those skills...
     
  7. TKDman

    TKDman Guest

    I don't doubt Ninjitsu's effectiveness or the impact that its had on American Armed forces and espionage techniques, I'm just saying that certain aspects of the show were just plain funny. I found myself chuckling at bits and parts here and there. I am a serious martial artist myself, I am not coming from the view of a ignorant american calling the martial arts "voodoo".

    Ninjitsu is and always has been fastenating. I think you just took my comments a little too seriously.
     
  8. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    Wish I had cable....wish Paul M would have taped it for me ;). Guess those SEALS learned not to let camera crews tape the principal from now on. :)
     
  9. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    In the wise and wonderful words of Daffy Duck: "It's mine, mine, mine mine, down, down down, it's mine, all mine....I'm rich, I'm wealthy, I'm comfortably well off....." and lest we forget for the powerful message from that great mystical cult of the FINDING NEMO Sea Gulls: "Mine?"

    Ask me nice, compliment my hair and tell my I'm the only one and I MIGHT try and search for a reshowing and program the VCR....:)

    "But you gotta ask me nice" (Jack Nicholson as Colonel Jessob - A Few Good Men).
     
  10. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    In my opinion Hayes shihan did a wonderful job expressing Togakure ryu ninpo.
    The show over all was poorly done other than Hayes shihan parts. Not much research into todays training or facts on the Togakure ryu or the soke, Hatsumi sensei.

    If I had one thing to say about this show with any negative statements it would be no one spoke about the soke of Togakure ryuha. This is in fact the ONLY ninjutsu active today.

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  11. sojobow

    sojobow Purple Belt

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    I wouldn't doubt this statement. The Producer's considered SKH as representing the old/original style from Iga.

    The Producer's made it clear that their research considered the SEAL - Special Forces - Ranger - Central Intel as Ninjitsu as it exist today via evolution. The SEAL team's exercise was, according to their research, what would likely happen in a Ninjitsu operation today. Not my opinion but the actual statements made by the narrators during the show.

    Your opinion is well expressed as well as your devotion to your ryuha. Only problem is that there is a growing ninjitsu populus today that feel that the depictions in the show are more correct in that Ninjitsu has evolved and this same populus honor the past but practice the present and the future. Personally, I don't believe that Togakure ryuha was EVER the ONLY active Ninjutsu back then and definately today.

    Point Last: SKH had a choice and chose his methods of completing his assignment. No use of any Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu weapons was his choice. Someone looking for a martial arts style to start today may now chose to look elsewhere as (if you didn't notice) SKH knocked off the hat but the guard KILLED SKH at the same time, and even more interesting, part of Ninjitsu is to ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL ----- SKH DIED!!!!!! All the SEAL team walked away - maybe SkH didn't feel it necessarily part of the exercise to live afterwards.
     
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  12. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Consider this...

    At any point while the two guards were separated and he was inches away from either one, he could have killed them, because neither one was "wary" of his presence. I think it was an intentional decision NOT to display that aspect of it, he wasnt there to "kill" only to demonstrate that it is possible to reach his target. I think it says a lot that he chose NOT to portray the ninja as a "deadly killer" and if those are the people off-put by the show who choose to seek training elsewhere, so much the better.
     
  13. theletch1

    theletch1 Grandmaster

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    That's what I took away from it too. I applaud SKH for downplaying the weapons/lethality of the style. Far too often nowadays in the news we see reports of someone getting killed and the killer is reported as having studied some martial art or other when they were 4 years old (tic). Busting in the door with his "to" drawn, throwing shuriken all over the place would have added television flare to the episode but taken away from the message that I think he was trying to get across. I'm not a student of ninjutsu even though there is a bujinkan dojo 2 miles from my house. One of the turnoffs for me was all the '80s movie hype about the art. This documentary down played all that and even debunked a lot of it.
     
  14. sojobow

    sojobow Purple Belt

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    Points well taken and I have taken your points into consideration. However (and you knew there would be a 'however'), Consider this: the guards were armed with, what represented, 9mm semi-automatic, laser-fitted weapons (which automatically places the entire assignment in a modern theater and not in 11th century combat). Would you consider this weaponry so tepid that you would think only a spray-can of windex is enough (in real life)? Do you consider the SEALS use of force as excessive? SKH's 'good intentions' got him killed as I seemed to remember the second guard rebounding from the brush-aside and firing almost point-blank. I didn't want to get into a debate on monday-morning-quarterbacks opinion on SKH's part in the show and hope we all don't fall into such behavior. I only wanted to point out that modern depictions in the show lasted minutes while ancient techniques took hours and resulted in the assignee being killed which, to my understanding, is not something to honor in practice.
     
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  15. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Ralph Severe did not say the Togakure ryu was the only ninjutsu back then, he said it is the only active ryuha now. And he is correct. There may be people who beleive there are other schools still active, but then again there are people who think the world is flat. The opinions of a few idiots does not matter a lot without proof and there is no proof that the varied ninjutsu "clans" you read about on the internet are any older than disco music. The fact that most of what these "secret ninja" groups write makes people with Japan experience laugh so hard that milk comes out of their nose is another point against them.
     
  16. sojobow

    sojobow Purple Belt

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    I wanted to take this opportunity to, hopefully, make clear even my last post above:

    In modern warfare, as the SEAL team depicted and the producers considered the closest martial artform to Ninjitsu, there is one of three very important eddicts; If the enemy arms, kill him.

    I can understand your sentimentality, however, we are discussing Ninjitsu and not sports fishing or the UFC. In Ninjitsu, you are trained not to 'capture' the enemies General, but to kill him. If your assignment was to 'capture' for the purpose of intel, you would attempt to 'capture' the target. Everyone between you and him were expendable and killed if they presented arms. The two guards were both 'Armed.'

    Aikido is another martial art originally developed for the purpose of killing the enemy. Maybe it would be best if those not having this Mind and Spirit take up some 'softer' style which is also honorable in itself. But I'd stay away from the American military and Ninjitsu if lethality presents some type of mental anquish.
     
  17. DuckofDeath

    DuckofDeath Orange Belt

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    I agree with sojobow that a ninja should ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL. Has Steven Hayes ever killed anyone and escaped after the kill? I doubt it. Frank Dux, on the other hand, has indeed done this, and it is documented in his autobiography The Secret Man. Dux stalked his prey, a rogue operative known as Fish, all over the world, finally killing him with his bare hands and escaping undetected.

    Why was Hayes selected to participate in the special rather than Dux? Although Dux isn't in the best of health these days, he certainly could have been consulted and interviewed, and one of his black belts--David Silverman, for example--could have done the "get to the target" exercise.

    I'm sure sojobow will agree with me.
     
  18. sojobow

    sojobow Purple Belt

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    I may have been somewhat unclear in my writing to Mr. Severe. I absolutely did not believe that Mr. Severe said that the Togakure Ryu was the only ninjutsu back then. I am somewhat purplexed by these milk-snorting individuals complacentcy in believing that ninjutsu (the martial art) originated in Japan. I would agree that the term or word "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" is Japanese in origin but the martial art this/these term(s) reference are definately NOT Japanese in origin and were not the brainchild of any "Japanese." Maybe these 'people with Japan experience' would do better by discontinuing the comedic snorting and realize, in truth, that others may go back further and look at the seed or the bulb and not the flower in a search for truth..

    I also don't believe that there is anyone in Japan that Western civilization has need of proving anything to as there is also no need of anyone in Japan "proving" anything to anyone outside of Japan. (think I'd better speak for myself)

    Personally, it has taken me 3 years to understand the sequence of evading a head-on attack by moving to my right, turning to my left and striking with efficiency. Never did I understand the necessary pre-requisit body movement sequences and naturally, I didn't understand that maximum efficience is dependent upon the attacker using his own body motion to turn to his left. If he does not attempt to turn left, my body motion will not maximize my own efficiency. It is HIS motion that provides power to this technique. It took me 3 years to see and understand this so you and I may be of more use to this forum and one-another if topics revolving around technique, science of the art, philosophy, etc were discussed.
     
  19. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Yes, ninjutsu is Japanese. There is no proof to the silly stories of Chinese ninja moving to Japan. There are Chinese influences on Japanese civilization, and ninjutsu with it's use of the art of war is no exception. But ninjutsu was born in Japan and is Japanese.

    That was....interesting to say the least. There is no proof to the claims of other "ninja" arts running around in the west ever existed in Japan. It is silly to assume that the Japanese would have no idea of a ninjutsu art when it is the country is supposably came from. It is also silly to think that someone who writes books, has mini mall dojos, has a movie made about himself, etc, can then site a need for secrecy when asked to back up his claims of learnign ninjutsu from a real teacher. But the guys like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc all seemt o get away with it due to the numerous gullible folks out there.

    So quite simply put, there is no other existing ninjutsu ryuha that is legitimate and has proven to exist prior to disco music outside of the Togakure ryu. If anyone has trouble with that statement, then I would let them to provide proof. If they do not care enough to prove their claims, then it would be rather silly for them to try to continue to argue the point.
     
  20. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    According to this agrument, You missed my point entirely. Go back and re-read it.
     

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