Ninjitsu- not just another martial art

[Cryozombie]

You cant possibly have all the kukan.......thats like having all the In and none of the Yo....the trick is to have all the useable kukan........allow your opponent to have all the unusable kukan they can take.

Markk Bush

Well, its all USEABLE, right? You just want them to USE the space that doesnt allow them to injure you, right? I mean, if they wanna use that open space away from you to say... flee... thats generally acceptable, no?

 

[Don Roley]

Along with Markks response, I would like to add that the bujinkan is a complete martial art. We leave nothing out.

Wrong.

There are limits to everything and the Bujinkan is no exception. There are some arts that I can mention that do very well in their specialization. For a Bujinkan practicioner to go against them in their area of specialization would be suicide.

I had a conversation with someone recently who was talking about some tapes from another art. He was excited because 70 to 80 percent could possibly be used in our art with no trouble or contridiction. You want to say that the Bujinkan leaves nothing out? Well, if you want a Ferrari you have to leave out the heavy lifting of a 18 wheeler truck. To be one thing, you have to not try to be everything half way.

I like Bujinkan and have come to live where the best training in it is. So you can't say I am trashing the Bujinkan. But nothing can be the best in everything. The Bujinkan is what I like in being well centered and it fits my ideal for a martial art. But for people that have to live a different sort of life, other arts are much better suited. And I will admit that rather than try to say that the Bujinkan is perfect in every way.

 

[Cyber Ninja]

Very well said Don. For myself personally, Ninjutsu/Ninpo Taijutsu/Budo Taijutsu (however you refer to the arts), it is best suited for my taste.

 

[Bigshadow]

I mean, if they wanna use that open space away from you to say... flee... thats generally acceptable, no?

Well, what if they want to use that space to regroup and come back at you?

 

[Bigshadow]

What follows are my thoughts and opinions...

I have been thinking about the word "Complete". In my opinion, that word is very open ended and vague with respect to martial arts. I think that often times when people say complete martial art, they referring to survival and the knowledge of universal principles of hand to hand combat. However, the listener thinks more along the lines of sport.

In sports, there are rules, the end is determined by time and a few other factors, but certainly not death. The athletes know how long the "fight" could last and there is no real fear for their life. There are specialized techniques that they use to "win" and like-wise by rules there is only so much that can be done. Most times these techniques are adaptations of martial techniques. But neither is going into the competition with the intent to seriously harm, maim, or kill the other one.

For me, from what I can tell, the Bujinkan contains what I consider a complete art for survival (with the exception of eternal life). Human hand-to-hand combat has some very universal principles and BBT certainly has NOT cornered the market on them, as I am sure there are many other arts who realize these principles. However, for me it has everything I could possiby think of and it works for me. I believe it is a complete martial art for survival.

In essence I think that "complete" conjures up all sorts of definitions that are not entirely accurate, especially when the speaker is thinking fruit and the listener is thinking oranges.

 

[Kizaru]

When dealing with controlling your opponents space, not many other, if any martial arts teach this. They have in my opinion lost the essence of their own art.

Statements about broads can be dangerous, broad statements even more dangerous.

We strive off controlling the opponent’s kukan. The opponent is meaningless.

Until of course he stabs you with the knife you didn't see (because you thought he was meanigless) and the stuff on your insides starts to come out onto your outsides...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"The game is a lot bigger than you think you know, and if you think you know then I don't think you know."

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Statements about broads can be dangerous, broad statements even more dangerous.

Someone I know within the Bujinkan has been known to complain about the supposed fact that practitioners styles like WingTsun, KunTaoSilat, Kali, Muay Thai and NHB-oriented systems can't move their feet enough. It's also interesting to note that this individual has never been to Japan.

I hope for his sake that he never gets into a fight with Michael Flatley.

 

[Fallen Ninja]

I think that would be a very correct statement.

"NinjItsu- not just another martial art".

Try an art that doesn't exist.

I hate when the Kukan controls me and guides my next move, making me move inside, around, and under it. Does that happen to anyone else? Can anyone say Kihon Happo?:supcool:

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, what if they want to use that space to regroup and come back at you?

Hopefully you are aware enough when this happens, then, and not busy thinking "Ha! I schooled him!" so that if he/she does come back, you can again use the space.

As far as the Bujinkan being "All encompasing" Its interesting to see people say "Yes it is, you just havnt seen it yet" and see people say "No, it doesnt have everything"...

My feeling is similar to Don's... I believe it is well rounded but not a master of every arena of combat. The area I think that the bujinkan makes up for this, however, is in the lessons we see that tell us not to fight a fighter the way he wants... If a Boxer wants to box, you dont stand around and box him. If a grappler wants to grapple, you dont try to "out grapple" him.

I truly believe that the one thing you can say about the Bujinkan is that Its a martial art for the development of the head, as well as the physical skills.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Even if we suppose for a moment that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu IS all-encompassing, it's up to YOU to find someone capable of teaching you whatever it is you want to learn.

More often than not, this is technically possible.

 

[Bigshadow]

If a Boxer wants to box, you dont stand around and box him. If a grappler wants to grapple, you dont try to "out grapple" him.

I truly believe that the one thing you can say about the Bujinkan is that Its a martial art for the development of the head, as well as the physical skills.

I would agree with that! Obviously, trying to out-do someone on their terms when they specialize in something is not very smart. However, there are universal principles of human combat and if you can work with these, then no matter whether your attacker is a boxer, grappler, swordsman, or even Darth Vader, you just may survive. It isn't a sport where you play on their terms, like you said, don't try to out box the boxer.

I don't really think I am disagreeing with Don or even you, just I think the tools are there to deal with most anything, they are there for us to find, that is one of the benefit of training.

 

[Cryozombie]

I don't really think I am disagreeing with Don or even you, just I think the tools are there to deal with most anything, they are there for us to find, that is one of the benefit of training.

Yep! I agree... thats what I meant when I said it was "Well rounded"...

Even if we suppose for a moment that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu IS all-encompassing, it's up to YOU to find someone capable of teaching you whatever it is you want to learn.

More often than not, this is technically possible.

This is probably true, and I have seen that it IS possible to specialize in this art as well, but the art, overall, is not that specialized, is it?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The art itself, or its exponents?

 

[seansnyder]

Sorry it took so long.....

Here we go Don Roley:

There are some arts that I can mention that do very well in their specialization.

Agreed

For a Bujinkan practicioner to go against them in their area of specialization would be suicide.

Agreed, I would never box with a boxer with only their rules applying. Put me on the street with a boxer, with everything in the world at my finger tips....look out!!!

We train or at least I train for real life combat, not sport. I will never go to a kung fu dojo and only fight the guy using kung fu. I don't know kung fu. But I feel pretty confident that if I used the skills and knowledge I have from my bujinkan training that I would fair pretty damn well.

I had a conversation with someone recently who was talking about some tapes from another art. He was excited because 70 to 80 percent could possibly be used in our art with no trouble or contridiction. You want to say that the Bujinkan leaves nothing out?

Yes I will.

Well, if you want a Ferrari you have to leave out the heavy lifting of a 18 wheeler truck. To be one thing, you have to not try to be everything half way.

I disagree with your analogy. It sounds like you don't believe in YOUR own training.

Explain half way.

I like the Bujinkan and have come to live where the best training in it is.

Where's that?

So you can't say I am trashing the Bujinkan.

Really? One last question, would you stand in front of Hatsumi, or Nagato Sensei and tell them we don't have a complete art?

But for people that have to live a different sort of life, other arts are much better suited.

Can you explain?



----------------------------------------------------------------

Sean Snyder
U?G.P! Dojo

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

We train or at least I train for real life combat, not sport. I will never go to a kung fu dojo and only fight the guy using kung fu. I don't know kung fu. But I feel pretty confident that if I used the skills and knowledge I have from my bujinkan training that I would fair pretty damn well.

"Everyone has a plan. Then they get punched in the face."

Ten points if you whom this quote came from.

Yes I will.

Allright then, the Bujinkan prepares you for full contact muay thai/kickboxing/sanshou/vale tudo style competitions. Agree or disagree?

I disagree with your analogy. It sounds like you don't believe in YOUR own training.

Overconfidence is never very useful either.

Where's that?

Japan.

Really? One last question, would you stand in front of Hatsumi, or Nagato Sensei and tell them we don't have a complete art?

Would you stand in front of the same gentlemen and tell them that you've seen/been around enough of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu to make that conclusion?

Can you explain?

Well, Budo Taijutsu not a very profitable enterprise assuming you want to get out of the ghetto but can't rap or don't have enough luck at the lottery...neither is it something that (USUALLY) develops proficiency and "fighting spirit" quickly. However, I'd say this has more to do with the individuals performing the training and less with the training itself. I'm totally convinced that if people in the Bujinkan started wearing ordinary clothes a bit more often at least in the beginner's classes (or at least took off their gi jackets in favour of t-shirts), added an extra punch, elbow or groin kick with every hajutsu technique, put on redman suits a bit more often and marketed it all as SELF-DEFENSE TRAINING first and foremost, we would instantly attain the same public image of an effective, no-nonsense self-defense system as Krav Maga has gotten in recent years. The difference, again, is what we choose to emphasize. But functionally, assuming you're willing to put in the training required, the difference isn't all that big.

 

[Cryozombie]

The art itself, or its exponents?

Its exponents. Sorry... i re-read that and realized it wasnt clear

 

[Bigshadow]

Allright then, the Bujinkan prepares you for full contact muay thai/kickboxing/sanshou/vale tudo style competitions. Agree or disagree?

Please explain how competitions are related to budo? I am sorry, but I think that is precisely what I was getting at when people talk about being complete. That was why I emphasized I feel it is complete with regards to survival. Competitions are entirely different. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not going to prepare you for full contact FOOTBALL. So in that respect it is not complete? It won't prepare me for full contact carpentry either. But then again it isn't related. Just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Please explain how competitions are related to budo? I am sorry, but I think that is precisely what I was getting at when people talk about being complete. That was why I emphasized I feel it is complete with regards to survival.

Please explain to me how a Ferrari race car is related to an 18-wheeler?

 

[Bigshadow]

Please explain to me how a Ferrari race car is related to an 18-wheeler?

They are both vehicles or modes of transportation. That is like saying how is football related to baseball. However, I am trying to understand how is budo related to sports?