Ninjitsu- not just another martial art

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The training conducted in both endeavours, though they take on radically different forms, is based on the usage of violence against other persons.

 

[Bigshadow]

The training conducted in both endeavours, though they take on radically different forms, is based on the usage of violence against other persons.

OK? The only similarities I can find between sport and Budo is human movement. But then again both the sports car and the big haul truck both move as does many things on this planet. As a matter of fact, both the vehicles and in sports, movement is bound by rules, either rules of the road or rules of the game, both of which provide safety and fairness. Whereas, in budo the rules are the boundaries that make us human and what governs human movement, regardless of safety or fairness. In my opinion these are the details that changes things entirely. Just like DNA, where there are so many similarities between different species, that it MUST be the most finite detail that changes EVERYTHING.

I don't have all the answers and probably none at all, just expressing my thoughts and opinions, so please don't take it as an attack.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The only similarities I can find between sport and Budo is human movement.

Might as well get one thing straight right now - NO system whatsoever has the sole right to specific techniques, be they hip throws, takedowns, armbars, kimuras, right hooks or knife jabs. What separates them all is what they prioritize and what they're trying to accomplish by the usage of their chosen techniques. It is not my belief that one for instance HAS to practice KunTao, Silat or Kali to be able to defend yourself against knife attacks (though I do if and when the opportunity presents itself, maybe two or three times a year - purely out of my own interest, nothing else), no more do I believe that to be the case than I think the Gracies have the sole right to effective groundfighting.

(Seriously though, trying out BJJ is something I recommend people to do - not because they have something the Bujinkan lacks, not to fill in perceived gaps in their regular training, but simply because it's just fun as hell. )

 

[Kizaru]

I like the Bujinkan and have come to live where the best training in it is.

Where's that?

Ummm...Antarctica?

No.

Mmmm....Guam?

Close, but no...

Nmmm..... ATLANTIS!!! I've heard Aquaman has Ninja Tuna with laserbeams on their heads!

No....How about....Japan?

 

[Bigshadow]

Might as well get one thing straight right now - NO system whatsoever has the sole right to specific techniques, be they hip throws, takedowns, armbars, kimuras, right hooks or knife jabs.

That is precisely my point about universal principles. Many of the techniques in BBT are used in many martial arts, because they are universal, we may have different names but they are the same. I don't disagree with you there. Because martial arts are about human vs human combat you will see MANY techniques that are the same through out the martial arts, depending on where the focus of each art is at. In my opinion, I sense a difference much like are we looking at the forest or the trees.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Look closely in some of his fights and you might see Tyson applying strategies which we would likely describe as sanshin no kata...

 

[Don Roley]

That is precisely my point about universal principles. Many of the techniques in BBT are used in many martial arts, because they are universal, we may have different names but they are the same.

And we see things that are very, very different. This is why I wince at the use of terms such as "universal principles." Reality is universal. But the way you deal with reality can be almost infinate in its variations. A martial art is something that deals with the reality of combat and is thus not a principle in and of itself.

It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that everything is the same in all martial arts. And thus you can take something from one art and use it as is in another with no problem. But that is somewhat like trying to get the manuverablity of a Ferrari and the load carrying ability of a truck. You can't do it and will likely come up with something that does neither very well.

Lets just take the simple example of how we punch in the Bujinkan. Comparissons with boxing have already been made. But the way they punch in boxing or any striking oriented art is different from the way it is in the Bujinkan. A good striking art can do it worlds better than the Bujinkan IMO. Because that is what they are about- defeating the other guy by doing enough damage through strikes. That is not the strategy we see used by Hatsumi very often.

In the Bujinkan, the strikes are more often a displacement for the purpose of setting up kuzushi than trying to stay out of range and doing damage to the other guy. I would not like to take Noguchi's best punch, but I would be terrified of taking a good striker's best. The whole way you do punching differs in trying to achieve the aim of setting up kuzushi and going into some sort of throw or control.

I do not know the physics involved very well, but when you snap something back you increase the dump of kinetic energy into the receiver. You can see this in both a whip and the snap back of a strikers strike. You do not see this in many strikes to the torso in the Bujinkan. You see it sometimes in limb destruction, but if you take Danshi for example, after the fist bounces off the limb it then stays on the body at Kimon through the take down. I have learned not to hit and snap back, but to hit and grab something and continuing the dance.

And I have seen people try to do striker art methods to Bujinkan kata and the end result looks like Frankenstien's monster. They hit, snap back and then try to go back in to set up for Ganseki Nage and the like. They try to stun the guy long enough to set up the throw rather then let it flow into it naturally.

You can't have everything. To do well at being able to take someone down through things like Ganseki Nage we have to use striking methods that taken alone are not as good as those we see in arts that specialize in striking. And I am satisfied with that. Lao Tzu said something to the effect that the use of a wheel is dependent on the section that is not there. As long as we know what our art can do and what it is not supposed to do we can use it to good effect.

 

[Cryozombie]

MODERATOR NOTE:

Thread split to help return it to topic:

What makes ninjutsu more than just another martial art?

Technopunk
MT SuperModerator