My opinion on self defense. I want your opinions!

[FlamingJulian]

In my opinion, it's rather a misnomer to call these techniques "self-defense", although I believe that is a more or less direct translation of "hosinsul", which is the general term for this portion of the TKD curriculum.

What I've seen from many TKD schools is that their hosinsul curriculum seems to be a collection of counters (possibly derived from hapkido) to various (mostly static, mostly unrealistic) grabs. Often the techniques use an entirely different set of body mechanics and tactics from what is taught in the forms and in sparring. From my standpoint as a grappler, the execution and understanding of these techniques is often... not very impressive. This would be a typical example of the sort of stuff I usually see:

This is a gross generalization, of course. I'm sure there are TKD schools where the hosinsul material is better thought out and more integrated with the rest of the curriculum. Perhaps some of the senior TKD practitioners here can offer some input on the subject.

Ha.. Well don't get me wrong there are useful self defense moves that could be deadly with some tweaking. I think that a lot of the useless moves have potential with tweaking cause it can deepen your understanding of combat. However I think that once reaching 1st Dan the techniques should become more practical and done with realistic resistance to the technique. I test for 1st Dan soon and my Master is pretty confident I'll pass since I know all the requirements for the test, so I will know soon enough if the techniques get any better.


-Julian

 

[Headhunter]

It may work for someone it may not work for you. It may work in one fight but not in another there's 0 guarantees in street fighting. In a street everything has the potential and everything has the potential to not work just keep training do your thing and if you get into a fight do what comes naturally all you can do sitting around worrying about your techniques not working wont do any good

 

[FlamingJulian]

It may work for someone it may not work for you. It may work in one fight but not in another there's 0 guarantees in street fighting. In a street everything has the potential and everything has the potential to not work just keep training do your thing and if you get into a fight do what comes naturally all you can do sitting around worrying about your techniques not working wont do any good

Yeah that is true. Me and my brother have realistic sparring matches where we fight differently each match to simulate a real fight the best we can. We try to include realistic scenarios such as chokes and realistic reactions as well as realistic striking without rules. The only takedown I've ever landed was a leg catch and sweep from there. Self defense was no use at all so far. Me and my brother are both Tkd fighters at the same rank so that could be why it didn't work so far.


-Julian

 

[Juany118]

Yeah that is true. Me and my brother have realistic sparring matches where we fight differently each match to simulate a real fight the best we can. We try to include realistic scenarios such as chokes and realistic reactions as well as realistic striking without rules. The only takedown I've ever landed was a leg catch and sweep from there. Self defense was no use at all so far. Me and my brother are both Tkd fighters at the same rank so that could be why it didn't work so far.


-Julian

You need to think further though. In a real fight your environment is full of weapons and in a real fight someone is likely to go for these as force multipliers. Heck just being maneuvered into a chair or table, a curb, can be the difference between winning and losing.

 

[FlamingJulian]

You need to think further though. In a real fight your environment is full of weapons and in a real fight someone is likely to go for these as force multipliers. Heck just being maneuvered into a chair or table, a curb, can be the difference between winning and losing.

Well I didn't mention all the drills I practice with my brother. We practice realistic falling and getting back up fast with full resistance to stop it, fighting dizzy, fighting with a hurt limb (of course the limb isn't really hurt we just don't use it), watching videos of street fights and finding mistakes by the fighters, also have practiced realistic situations with realistic weapons and how to fight back against Baseball bats, knives, and nunchucks. And me and my training partner (my brother) are very skilled with nunchucks cause our old Tkd class taught them even though that's not nearly realistic in my opinion and I find the skill useless.


-Julian

 

[Headhunter]

Well I didn't mention all the drills I practice with my brother. We practice realistic falling and getting back up fast with full resistance to stop it, fighting dizzy, fighting with a hurt limb (of course the limb isn't really hurt we just don't use it), watching videos of street fights and finding mistakes by the fighters, also have practiced realistic situations with realistic weapons and how to fight back against Baseball bats, knives, and nunchucks. And me and my training partner (my brother) are very skilled with nunchucks cause our old Tkd class taught them even though that's not nearly realistic in my opinion and I find the skill useless.


-Julian

Yeah sure and all that trainings good but it's still not real in a real fight you'll be terrified your adrenaline will be pumping you'll be angry and scared and you will get hit 100% you will. You won't just be pretending to be hurt you will be hurt. It's easy to watch mistakes on videos not so easy to capitalise on those mistakes when your in it. You trust your bother and know he won't seriously hurt you not so much in the street and yeah nunchucks won't help unless your Bruce lee and carry them in your back pocket. I'm not saying all this to cristise and saying your trainings useles because it's not anythings better than nothing but training isn't the be all and end all either you have to be ready for anything what happens if you get cut bad see your own blood feel the pain and dizziness a street fight is a lot different to a sparring match

 

[JowGaWolf]

In my opinion, it's rather a misnomer to call these techniques "self-defense", although I believe that is a more or less direct translation of "hosinsul", which is the general term for this portion of the TKD curriculum.

What I've seen from many TKD schools is that their hosinsul curriculum seems to be a collection of counters (possibly derived from hapkido) to various (mostly static, mostly unrealistic) grabs. Often the techniques use an entirely different set of body mechanics and tactics from what is taught in the forms and in sparring. From my standpoint as a grappler, the execution and understanding of these techniques is often... not very impressive. This would be a typical example of the sort of stuff I usually see:

This is a gross generalization, of course. I'm sure there are TKD schools where the hosinsul material is better thought out and more integrated with the rest of the curriculum. Perhaps some of the senior TKD practitioners here can offer some input on the subject.

I agree. The confusion is not so much the technique, but the assumption that someone will grab another person the way that is being displayed. I'm not a grappler and I share the same thoughts about the execution and understanding of the techniques is often not very impressive, but also lacking.

When I look at the video I see Technique Application Mechanics and not Technique Application Fighting/Self Defense. Even with that some of the Technique Application Mechanics are questionable because it doesn't take into account the motion of the attacker who is grabbing the arm. Grabs are usually done with a pulling or pushing motion so some of those Mechanics that were shown aren't going to work in a Fighting or Self Defense scenario. #17 isn't going to work in a real world application. I stopped after that because man.. the techniques were just being abused even in the Mechanics demo.

 

[FlamingJulian]

Yeah sure and all that trainings good but it's still not real in a real fight you'll be terrified your adrenaline will be pumping you'll be angry and scared and you will get hit 100% you will. You won't just be pretending to be hurt you will be hurt. It's easy to watch mistakes on videos not so easy to capitalise on those mistakes when your in it. You trust your bother and know he won't seriously hurt you not so much in the street and yeah nunchucks won't help unless your Bruce lee and carry them in your back pocket. I'm not saying all this to cristise and saying your trainings useles because it's not anythings better than nothing but training isn't the be all and end all either you have to be ready for anything what happens if you get cut bad see your own blood feel the pain and dizziness a street fight is a lot different to a sparring match

Well haha I know that much. All the training is just to get as close to it as possible. Lol.


-Julian

 

[Headhunter]

Well haha I know that much. All the training is just to get as close to it as possible. Lol.


-Julian

Which is good but from my own experiences any time I've had to defend myself it's absolutely nothing like training or even fighting in the ring if someone filmed my street fights and someone looked at them you'd never know I was a martial artist but I did my job and defended myself

 

[FlamingJulian]

Which is good but from my own experiences any time I've had to defend myself it's absolutely nothing like training or even fighting in the ring if someone filmed my street fights and someone looked at them you'd never know I was a martial artist but I did my job and defended myself

I know what u mean. I've never been in a deadly fight. I fought some kids in my school before who were quite easy to beat tho lol. They just ran


-Julian

 

[Flatfish]

I agree. The confusion is not so much the technique, but the assumption that someone will grab another person the way that is being displayed. I'm not a grappler and I share the same thoughts about the execution and understanding of the techniques is often not very impressive, but also lacking.

When I look at the video I see Technique Application Mechanics and not Technique Application Fighting/Self Defense. Even with that some of the Technique Application Mechanics are questionable because it doesn't take into account the motion of the attacker who is grabbing the arm. Grabs are usually done with a pulling or pushing motion so some of those Mechanics that were shown aren't going to work in a Fighting or Self Defense scenario. #17 isn't going to work in a real world application. I stopped after that because man.. the techniques were just being abused even in the Mechanics demo.

I fully agree and we have the same issue in our school (although not quite as bad as the ones in the vid). That's why I'm interested in finding out what does actually work in a realistic scenario (after discarding the real obviously crappy ones). For example joint lock mechanics are often actually pretty simple and as such are not "bad techniques". In Tony's video, #8 is one we do as well. I think the wrist lock followed by the arm bar is ok, but the way he does it is that he steps forward and rotates his body. If your attacker pulls you after his grab that might be appropriate because you're going with his force but if he pushes you it might be better to step backwards and rotate thereby pulling him forward and off balance.

 

[marques]

So self defense in my Taekwondo school id where someone does and unrealistic grab on you and you go though a series of movements then execute a counter attack. My issue with this: if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick. Do any of you agree or disagree? I feel like these moves won't help me in the street? Any suggestions? Is this all completely useless? Thanks guys

I think I understood. My approach is something between the complex movements that may work in training and the 'simple' kick or punch.

My priority is protecting myself, and the hand grabbing me is the least dangerous. So I will not bother a lot about that in the first instance. I would pay attention to the other one and manage the distance in order to nullify (as far as possible) its danger. Headbutt is also likely to happen, so distance management also applies to that. After that, I may keep speaking with the man or choose the strike, finish the release...

Something similar already happened to me. After a big mistake when driving from my part, the angry guy found me in the parking lot and grabs me. So punching him would be my second mistake in the same day... I could not, against a 'legit' grab. And in a place I was daily. So I just moved myself slightly to nullify all the relevant danger and having a strike ready, anyway (hand touching (controlling) the shoulder, ready to go to the chin, invisible). I kept listening. He said what he wanted. He leaves. End of the story. Fortunately.

There are no formulas. In the reality, the best solution is 'personalised'.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In Tony's video, #8 is one we do as well. I think the wrist lock followed by the arm bar is ok, but the way he does it is that he steps forward and rotates his body. If your attacker pulls you after his grab that might be appropriate because you're going with his force but if he pushes you it might be better to step backwards and rotate thereby pulling him forward and off balance.

My problem with #8 as demonstrated in the video is that it is executed so poorly that it is obvious the demonstrator has no understanding of the details that make the technique work or not work. Unless you are much stronger than your attacker and your opponent grabs you in a very unnatural way and then forgets what he was doing and just stands there without reacting, you won't have a very good success rate trying the technique in the manner shown.

There's a time and a place for standing armlocks and wristlocks, but you have to actually know how they work.

 

[Paul_D]

So self defense in my Taekwondo school id where someone does and unrealistic grab on you and you go though a series of movements then execute a counter attack. My issue with this: if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick. Do any of you agree or disagree? I feel like these moves won't help me in the street? Any suggestions? Is this all completely useless? Thanks guys

Don't worry too much about the actual technique itself. The important thing is not to concentrate on that, but on the principals that make it work.

Techniques have a finite use, and it is not practical to learn a different counter for every possible attack. Principals however have an almost infinite application, and it is these principals that are the most important part of whatever counter you are being taught.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick.

What will happen that when you try to kick him, he "yanks" your arm down? That downward pulling will force you to shift weight onto your leading leg and interrupt your kick.

When you try to punch him with your other free arm, he can pull/drag your leading arm across your body, and use your leading arm to jam your own back arm.

So a simple arm grip can prevent you from punching and kicking. Since your opponent can release his grip any time he wants to, that will be his advantage.

 

[WaterGal]

Don't worry too much about the actual technie itself. The important thing is not to concentrate on the , but on th eprincipals tat maek it work.

Techniques have a finite use, and it is not practical to learn a different counter for every possible attack. Principals however have an almost infinite application, and it is these principals that are the most important part of whatever counter you are being taught.

Yes, definitely. This is why self-defense curriculums sometimes start out with defenses that don't seem very useful - because what they're really teaching you are certain foundational principles, not literally how to defend against an attacker who grabs your wrist and then stands there in a static way.

Like in Tony's video (though I agree with him that the techniques are being executed pretty poorly), the intention seems to be to show the student how to do an armbar, a wrist lock, how you can use the same basic technique to address grabs at different points on the body, etc. Presumably, in a well-organized curriculum, successive belt levels would cover different basic techniques and principles, and lead to more realistic scenarios being practiced.

 

[FlamingJulian]

What will happen that when you try to kick him, he "yanks" your arm down? That downward pulling will force you to shift weight onto your leading leg and interrupt your kick.

The other reason that your opponent wants to grab on your arm is trying to use your leading arm to jam your own back arm. This way, you can't punch him with your back arm.

So a simple arm grip can prevent you from punching and kicking. Since your opponent can release his grip any time he wants to, that will be his advantage.

Thanks for replying. Helped a lot and made me look at it from a different point of view


-Julian

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While I was looking around for the style I wanted to study, I visited a lot of martial arts schools...took a lot of free lessons. Sadly, MANY of them started me out with the "if someone grabs your wrist" shtick. The defensive moves you described are not useless, but the whole wrist-grabbing thing is unrealistic. I've witnessed a lot of street fights in my day. No one ever went for a wrist grab first. If I were you, I would check out some other schools. You want to find a style where, when you see it, you say, "Wow, I see how that could be applied!" You want something that speaks out to you, that strikes you as making sense the SECOND you see it.

At least, that is my opinion on it anyway...for what it's worth.

I actually teach the wrist releases fairly early (it was actually the first thing I learned in NGA). They are not useless - grabs are a potential part of the attack, and those are part of the arsenal that a new student can get a grip on (see what I did there??) pretty easily. I build on the principles I teach them in that technique over several weeks, and they do later learn the rest of the attack (grab and punch, grab and try to drag off, grab and spin around to punch, etc.). You've just done the same thing with wrist escapes that the OP did with his example: you didn't understand the application, so you judged it useless.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks for replying. I would check out some other schools but will stick with my school. I'll just have to do both. I'm passionate about Taekwondo and do believe that it's a great art. I just think that there are useless things in it.


-Julian

This is a good idea. You're far enough in to know you love it, and to know what you feel is missing. Go find a school that fills that gap!

 

[FlamingJulian]

This is a good idea. You're far enough in to know you love it, and to know what you feel is missing. Go find a school that fills that gap!

Thanks. Yeah i was thinking like JKD something appreciate your answer. Very helpful


-Julian