More from the "Religion of Peace"

[Twin Fist]

if you had read the bible Andrew, you would know that Christ's covenant erases the Old testament.

It is scripture, but it's laws and rules are not binding.

so the silly **** in the old testament? doesnt really count.

 

[elder999]

if you had read the bible Andrew, you would know that Christ's covenant erases the Old testament.

It is scripture, but it's laws and rules are not binding.

so the silly **** in the old testament? doesnt really count.

You think? Some would argue that Christ came to embody the law, not to erase it. THat "silly ****," as you put it, is used by what some would consider mainstream Christian leadership to bully gays, and anyone who isn't a Christian or a Jew. THe fact that they're cherry picking from it, saying this part is binding, and this one isn't (for the reason you've said) only serves to show how absolutely loony some of them are....

I'd also point out that the Ten Commandments are part of that "silly ****," and Jesus did reaffirm the commandments.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I've read it. Nice work of fiction.
Which one? All of them.

I'll believe the supposed "word of Christ" when someone can prove he was more than some myth. So far, all evidence points to a non-existent entity, created out of older myths, by frightened old men, seeking yet another means to control the small minded and ignorant. Rather than rehash that, just search here, read the extensive debate from a few years back.

Mohammad did at least exist, as there is a bloodline, and a parking lot which used to be his home.

The words in all those books are pretty, but, quite out of date I think. The Jews at least update theirs regularly, where as the Christians are using a copy of the Jews that is two thousand years out of touch.

I'll avoid the detailed pointing out that even today, women are raped, children are abused, and men killed, in Christ's name. How many little "sects" are there again? You can say they are mis reading, mis interpreting, or mis understanding the words in their bible. You can say blue is red and light is dark too. Won't change reality.

Christianity, Islam, and all the rest are but one possible manual. There are others. They all are equally valid. Of course, some of us have thrown away those manuals, written by other people, and choose to write our own. You tend to hunt us down and burn us as witches. Sometimes, we even are witches. Your fear, your cowardice, your need to be "right" and "in control".

A million people might believe Jesus existed. A million people might have marched to war. Just because a million believe it, doesn't make it so.

I've read the Koran. You're right, it's not the most peaceful book out there. Neither is the Christian Bible, filled with incest, murder, and hatred. Wait. That's not what you read in it? Might want to read the whole thing with something most lack. An open mind. Might want to look up the missing sections that were omitted because they didn't "fit" with what the organisers intended.

Religion, in all it's guises, is a crutch to lean on, and a handcuff to restrict you.
People feel, without those, they will be helpless.
If there be Gods, they do not help, and victory belongs to the strong.
But all things done before the naked stars is remembered, if only, by them.

I now return you to your regulary scheduled debate of ignorance and bigotry.

 

[Twin Fist]

not quite Elder.

Nothing in the 10 commandments says to go kill the infidels, or have sex with 10 year olds.

And christ's own words (as recorded in text, who knows if it's true or not) said that he was thrnew law and the old law wasnt binding.

thats the way I was taught. And thats the way it reads. Some MAY debate it, but they are on shakey ground. At Best

but at least you are not arguing the content of the Koran.

You think? Some would argue that Christ came to embody the law, not to erase it. THat "silly ****," as you put it, is used by what some would consider mainstream Christian leadership to bully gays, and anyone who isn't a Christian or a Jew. THe fact that they're cherry picking from it, saying this part is binding, and this one isn't (for the reason you've said) only serves to show how absolutely loony some of them are....

I'd also point out that the Ten Commandments are part of that "silly ****," and Jesus did reaffirm the commandments.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I'll believe the supposed "word of Christ" when someone can prove he was more than some myth. So far, all evidence points to a non-existent entity, created out of older myths, by frightened old men, seeking yet another means to control the small minded and ignorant. Rather than rehash that, just search here, read the extensive debate from a few years back.

I'll believe the word of Christ when I actually see practised somewhere here on Earth.

 

[MA-Caver]

Entire Koran translated:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

http://i-cias.com/e.o/koran.htm#understanding
Essential to the reading of the Koran are the interpretations of the content. Even in modern times, there are scholars working on interpreting the text, but most of the material available now was performed within the earliest centuries of Islam.

As the Koran has a structure and a language, as well as allusions, which often are difficult for the normal Muslim to understand, a whole science were built around the comprehension of the Koran. The early Muslims studied history, language and nature science in an effort to understand the Koran better. The product is surprisingly well accepted by the whole Muslim society, and no Muslim child or adult of today, studying the Koran, does this without help from the interpretations built on the early sciences of the Koran.

The early efforts of Koranic science have given room for different approaches to the book and its content, but all interpretations are considered equal, and none can be claimed better than the other.

There are today 7 ways of reading the Koran, each of these have two variances, leaving the Muslims with 14 ways of reading the Koran. But in modern Koranic science this applies only to Muslim scholars, the ordinary Muslim reads the Koran without entering this level of complexity.

With that said... it's easy to give the uneducated/undereducated a great interpretation to suit individual needs.

Koran sura 16: The Bee
103 And whenever we change one verse for another,- God knows best what He sends down. They say, ‘Thou art but a forger!’- Nay, most of them do not know.
There are no traces of any ideas in early Islam that the second of these elements had existed prior to Muhammad. But as soon as the Koran was compiled into a book, its importance grew and its force as the foundation of the Islamic faith became something a Muslim couldn't question. After time the misunderstanding of the Koran as a perfect creation of God had established itself, and any Muslim claiming that not every single word of the Koran was sacred, risked his position in society, his health or even life.

Basically as I read it... this happened a long while ago and thus the words were twisted and corrupted to suit an individual's need for revenge for some wrong.

Like the Bible... a helluva lot got lost in the translation.

 

[elder999]

but at least you are not arguing the content of the Koran.

I've read the Quran-in Arabic, no less. I'm not going to argue its content-merely point out (As 'Caver has done) that it can be misinterpreted to suit all sorts of ends, and has been,just as the Bible has.

not quite Elder.

Nothing in the 10 commandments says to go kill the infidels, or have sex with 10 year olds.

And christ's own words (as recorded in text, who knows if it's true or not) said that he was thrnew law and the old law wasnt binding.

thats the way I was taught. And thats the way it reads. Some MAY debate it, but they are on shakey ground. At Best

Theologically, we might be in agreement on this, but the likes of the Pope, as in the real one at the Vatican, and ALL of his predecessors,not some "regional Islamic counterpart" - :lfao:- as well as the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, Don Adams, T.D. Jakes, and just about anyone I can think of in a leadership position in mainstream or fringe Christianity,(I with the exception of some Episcopalians, Unitarians, United Churchers and Methodists), to condemn homosexuals, witches, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and anyone else not within the "law" as written in Leviticus and Deuteronomy

Though they say it's okay to eat ribs and shrimp. :lfao:

As for Jesus, he did say that:

Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. "

Some interpret this verse as meaning that the "silly **** in the Old Testament" is still valid. :lfao:

 

[Twin Fist]

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)





get the picture? and there is no new testament in the Koran to void this stuff.

 

[Twin Fist]

Some interpret this verse as meaning that the "silly **** in the Old Testament" is still valid. :lfao:

I am not sure. i was taught that quote referred only to the 10 commandments, i will study further. One of my students is a bible freak, so I will ask him after class.

oh and BTW- I have never seen any of these fellows:
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, Don Adams, T.D. Jakes

telling christians to go out and kill anyone, much less gays.

 

[elder999]

oh and BTW- I have never seen any of these fellows:
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, Don Adams, T.D. Jakes

telling christians to go out and kill anyone, much less gays.

Jimmy Swaggert said he'd kill a gay guy and "tell God 'he died'" for looking at him....:lfao:

While the Christian faith has unquestionably moved beyond its medieval and pre-medieval roots in some ways, in others it has not. The evidence of it is in scripture for anyone to see, just as it is in the Quran. While many of the Islamic faith have moved beyond those medieval roots, others have not, and use them to justify a variety of crimes. Would we condemn the entirety of the faithful, just because of the misery inflicted by a few, or would we give them a chance to move out of the dark ages?

 

[Carol]

I think you got it backwards elder

the enemy isnt muslims, at least not all, because as you say, they dont all act like fools

the enemy IS islam

The enemy is *not* Islam.

The enemy is IGNORANCE.

No education, no way of earning one. No job skills and no ways of getting them. Where social strata is not based on willingness to ability to be a productive member of society but rather based on who one's father is. It is centuries of active discouragement of formal education that maintains the Shari'a totalitarian stronghold in the middle east.

Islam in that part of the world is so much more than how one practices the Sabbath or what holy book one opens for guidance. It is reflected in the language, how you greet one another, what words you are supposed to use, what your family relationships are like. It is woven in to every facet of society and has been for centuries. The Shari'a totalitarian regimes in place now are largely disgusting and fascist. However, when legions of have people have little more than one another...and an outside force (the West) threatens to take even that bond away...there will be resistance! The totalitarian Shari'a fundamentalists are dependent on an uneducated society.

This has been part of the reason why rebuilding Iraq has been so hard. Building schools is easy...hell, we can build a military base in a couple of days. But getting people to go to school, and to learn, and to understand why an education is so critically important is something that will take decades, if not centuries, to do.


Babe...you know I love you back, right?

 

[teekin]

TF, It does matter that "not all Muslims are like that" It matters very much. I've far too many friends who are Muslims to agree with that statement. They despise and are deeply embarrassed by their radical brethren. They know that these twists and reworkings of their Koran are wrong. They choose not to follow those so-called leaders who preach these atrocious mis-interpretations of that book.
It is the individual that needs to be taken care of, the individual who needs to be despised and hated and punished... not the faith. True there are a lot of individuals who are following this crap and living it. They are not doing it because Allah tells them so, they're doing it because another individual is telling them that Allah is telling them so.
Blame the men not the God, blame the reader who misinterprets, or intentionally twists around what they get from the book... not the book.
The Bible is full of the same stuff in the Old Testament, and there are isolated pockets of people who still live by it. Isolated individuals not the whole.
I think it's terrible yes that 10 yr. old girls are being forced to marry, I think it's horrible that women are being circumcised to prevent them from enjoying sexual unions and from being tempted to stray from their husbands. I think it's horrifying that people strap explosives to their bodies and walk into a crowd and hope to kill as many as possible including themselves.
They were all dictated by men, individual men who sought out like minded individuals and banded together and through coercion, rhetortic and whatever else convince many more individuals to follow them.
Curse the individuals not the true faith of Islam.
Get to know the true Islamic faith before condemning it.

I've learned much about it from my friends/associates and know it's not as radical as those bastards who give it a bad name make it to be.

From the "No, You Read it Wrong File".
One of the 10 commandments loosely says " thou shall not worship craven idols". This little gem was used by politically motivated players of the Protestant Reformation as an excuse to attack the Catholics as they left church and bash their heads in. Men, women, children. They had a statue of the Virgin Mary that they would light candles and pray to. Thusly they were worshiping a craven image and were therefor heathens and God would want them to be punished..... right It's in the bible! Of course to the founder of the movement, if you look at why he spit from the Catholic church in the first place, this was abhorent. But hell, who looks at the ideology any more.
The interpretation was done by Men, each with their own agenda, and taught by men, each with their own agenda. I'm sure they can twist the words, stories, parables and meanings to suit their needs as they please. Just like every other religion does.

Lori

 

[Twin Fist]

Swaggart? jeez i remember that asshat. And the $20 hooker he got busted with.

And oh, you're right, in that "some do some dont" stuff. The problem is the ones that do, well, they are perfectly willing to kill anyone, even other muslims that dont do that stuff, while they are doing that stuff.

It doesnt really happen with any other groups on the scale it does with islam.

No matter what you say, you cant deny Islam is causing lots of problems world wide

I have said all along my problem isnt with the people, the faith itself is the problem, and you cant really deny that since that faith is producing murderers in pretty damned scary numbers.

Jimmy Swaggert said
he'd kill a gay guy and "tell God 'he died'" for looking at him....:lfao:

While the Christian faith has unquestionably moved beyond its medieval and pre-medieval roots in some ways, in others it has not. The evidence of it is in scripture for anyone to see, just as it is in the Quran. While many of the Islamic faith have moved beyond those medieval roots, others have not, and use them to justify a variety of crimes. Would we condemn the entirety of the faithful, just because of the misery inflicted by a few, or would we give them a chance to move out of the dark ages?

 

[Twin Fist]

but islam encourages ignorance, and in many cases, enforces it.

And Darlin', show me any couple that agrees on everything and I will show you 2 people who are lying to each other

*smooch*

The enemy is *not* Islam.

The enemy is IGNORANCE.

No education, no way of earning one. No job skills and no ways of getting them. Where social strata is not based on willingness to ability to be a productive member of society but rather based on who one's father is. It is centuries of active discouragement of formal education that maintains the Shari'a totalitarian stronghold in the middle east.

Islam in that part of the world is so much more than how one practices the Sabbath or what holy book one opens for guidance. It is reflected in the language, how you greet one another, what words you are supposed to use, what your family relationships are like. It is woven in to every facet of society and has been for centuries. The Shari'a totalitarian regimes in place now are largely disgusting and fascist. However, when legions of have people have little more than one another...and an outside force (the West) threatens to take even that bond away...there will be resistance! The totalitarian Shari'a fundamentalists are dependent on an uneducated society.

This has been part of the reason why rebuilding Iraq has been so hard. Building schools is easy...hell, we can build a military base in a couple of days. But getting people to go to school, and to learn, and to understand why an education is so critically important is something that will take decades, if not centuries, to do.


Babe...you know I love you back, right?

 

[Twin Fist]

wait a sec, you can read arabic?

I tried once, written chinese made more sense to me than written arabic.

I've read the Quran-in Arabic, no less.

 

[elder999]

wait a sec, you can read arabic?

I tried once, written chinese made more sense to me than written arabic.

I'm the victim of a classical education-Homeric and koine Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic, in addition to a couple of modern languages-though my German is hardly conversational anymore....

I'm also the captive of a somewhat flexible and inquisitive mind-I played with some Lebanese brothers as a kid, so I picked up some Arabic, and pursued it when I had a chance. Additionally, I took studied the Quran for my religious studies degree, back in 1975.....

Try Korean for a completely incomprehensible language, or, worse even, Navajo.....:lfao:

 

[Twin Fist]

naw, korean isnt bad, even the written form, Hongul is easier to read than either Kanji or Chinese

navajo i have heard a couple times, but I cant wrap my head around the sounds.

 

[elder999]

navajo i have heard a couple times, but I cant wrap my head around the sounds.

Most dreadful words to hear at midnight (actually, sunrise is even worse!): "Now, I'm going to pray, but in my native language..."

 

[Twin Fist]

bleah

that would suck epic amounts of suckage

 

[elder999]

bleah

that would suck epic amounts of suckage

It's not soo bad. Of course, Dine will go on, and on, pray for everybody (as in EVERYBODY!) before they get down to finishing. It also doesn't help when you're as big as I am, you've basically been kneeling in the same spot for 10 or 12 hours, and you're ready to get out! and be done with the ceremony, but hey-I'm there to pray.....:lfao: