More from the "Religion of Peace"

[sgtmac_46]

Christianity (at least some major streams of it) doesn't?

Have you heard of a magical place called the Creationism Museum? Or noticed that a large percentage of the population completely rejects well established science when the bible tells them otherwise?

First, let me point out i'm agnostic.....so I have no dogmatic interest in this debate.....

Second, let me point that in the interest of honesty, Christianity did not start out as a violently proselytizing conqueror's religion at the hands of a bloody warlord.......

That's all i've really got to say about that.

 

[jarrod]

Second, let me point that in the interest of honesty, Christianity did not start out as a violently proselytizing conqueror's religion at the hands of a bloody warlord.......

you're right, it put off the violent proselytization until the 4th century.

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

I note that what ALWAYS happens when this discussion comes up, is a retort along the lines of 'Oh yeah, well Christianity, blah, blah, blah'.....as if making the argument about Christianity wins the point.....i'm not a Christian, i'm as secular as the day is long......and I see the problem as religious fundamentalism.......and the MOST powerful fundamentalist sect of any religion on the planet isn't Christianity, which is rather mild, even in it's most fundamentalist 'Fred Phelps' mode (Yelling idiotic statements outside funerals is nothing like killing thousands of people).

As a secularist, I view the fundamentalist aspect of Islam, which most estimate at 10% of the Islamic world, as one of the greatest threats to western civilization in existence......I certainly see it as a threat to Europe over the next 40 or 50 years.......

Yes, we have a tendency to shield religions from criticism.......but a religion is nothing but an ideology with a supernature reinforcer......so why can we not rationally discuss the ideological implications of certain beliefs just as we do political ideologies.........if anything religious ideologies, because of the supernatural reinforcer, can be VASTLY MORE DANGEROUS that political ideologies.......the majority of the Islamic world are peaceful, but a minority has a VERY DANGEROUS ideology that needs to be addressed.

 

[sgtmac_46]

you're right, it put off the violent proselytization until the 4th century.

jf

Actually, it put off the violent proselytizing until the Mohammadan's invaded Europe......it's a dirty little historic secret, apparently, that European Christian aggression was a RESPONSE to pressure from Islamic invasion........within 2 centuries of it's founding, Islamic forces had conquered, by force, all of the middle east, north Africa, and had invaded in to the Iberian Peninsula.

Europe, to the contrary, was not violent because of Christianity, but in spite of it......it was actually the void left by the Roman Empire that is the cause of European violence prior to the Islamic Invasion.......in the face of it, however, the Christian world had two choices......unite under a common banner, or yield to Islam.

 

[Twin Fist]

and again

"they did it too"

is not a defense

it's a deflection

 

[sgtmac_46]

and again

"they did it too"

is not a defense

it's a deflection

Especially when the 'they' which are being referred to, in this case Christianity, did so ONLY as a direct result of pressure and provocation........there are many who wish to discuss the Crusades, in a vacuum, without historical context.......but discussing the Crusades, without discussing Islamic Imperial expansion from the 7th century onwards is dishonest to say the least.


Now i'm not excusing the disgraceful behavior of the church.......there is no excuse for it, but context is EVERYTHING!

And since i'm agnostic......I don't have to get in debates over 'true religions'.......that's a moot point to me.......historical context is what's important to me.

 

[jarrod]

i agree, fundamentalism is the core problem, & it's a problem that NO RELIGION is free from. i wasn't pointing out christianity's violent past to make a dig at you, but to illustrate that all religions tend to follow an ebb & flow of violence & peace.

i do disagree with you that christian fundamentalism is mild. it is mild compared to muslim suicide bombers, but this will most likely change if & when our economy totally destabalizes. peace tends to follow prosperity, & islam was born out of a historically poor region. if the tables ever turn, meaning that muslim nations become prosperous & sustain a large middle-class while christian nations fall on harder times, i'm sure we'll see islam become very moderate while fundamentalist christianity becomes more & more...well, weird.

while your point about islam being spawned from a bandit is accurate, i think it's irrelevant. mainstream religions seldom reflect the teachings of their founder past a generation or two anyway.

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

while your point about islam being spawned from a bandit is accurate, i think it's irrelevant. mainstream religions seldom reflect the teachings of their founder past a generation or two anyway.

jf

I think the history of Islam refutes that point......the Islamic world was on the violent offensive from it's founding for the next 1000 years.....it was only western technical advancements that finally turned the Islamic invasion back, at Vienna, Austria in 1683.......it has only been in the last 400 years that Islam has been kept at bay by western technology........and we are about to lose that technological.......because oil buy's technological parity.

Many folks refuse to see the situation for what it REALLY is......a clash of civilizations......the nature of Islamic fundamentally is that it cannot live in a world of unbelievers........there is dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb........and you either are a true believer, or you aren't.

Secularism is the only answer.......so long as fundamentalist true belief exists, those believes will not accept a secular world.


Discussing other religions is a deflection, as only one major religion on the planet exhibits conflict among it's followers where they border ANY other group of people on the planet, from Sudan, to the Philippines........the fundamentalist followers of Mohammad are at war with their neighbors.

And yes, there is a moderate form of Islam.......it's built on respect for the tradition, without literal belief in it's more dangerous aspects.......just as there is with Christianity and Judaism.......but Islam has not yet had it's Reformation.......honestly i'm not so sure Islam won't win this conflict and inherit Western Civilization!

 

[jarrod]

Actually, it put off the violent proselytizing until the Mohammadan's invaded Europe......it's a dirty little historic secret, apparently, that European Christian aggression was a RESPONSE to pressure from Islamic invasion........within 2 centuries of it's founding, Islamic forces had conquered, by force, all of the middle east, north Africa, and had invaded in to the Iberian Peninsula.

Europe, to the contrary, was not violent because of Christianity, but in spite of it......it was actually the void left by the Roman Empire that is the cause of European violence prior to the Islamic Invasion.......in the face of it, however, the Christian world had two choices......unite under a common banner, or yield to Islam.

actually christian persecution of roman paganism began prior to the muslim invasion, & was as pretty grotesque affair. christian europe may have acted in defense against islam, but it had a well established precedent of eradicating contrary views.

and again

"they did it too"

is not a defense

it's a deflection

this is true. however it isn't fair to single out one religion for something others are equally guilty of. if i got on here & said "black people beat their wives & rob liquor stores" i would be suggesting that this was a problem specific to the black community, when in fact it isn't. people would reply by telling the that all races participate in those crimes, & they would be right to point that out.

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

actually christian persecution of roman paganism began prior to the muslim invasion, & was as pretty grotesque affair. christian europe may have acted in defense against islam, but it had a well established precedent of eradicating contrary views.

You mean the Roman pagans who threw Christians to the lions? What you REALLY have there is the Roman state that does not tolerate any religion except the official one, christian, pagan or otherwise......not a product of the ideology, but a product of the state.....not the same thing.

this is true. however it isn't fair to single out one religion for something others are equally guilty of. if i got on here & said "black people beat their wives & rob liquor stores" i would be suggesting that this was a problem specific to the black community, when in fact it isn't. people would reply by telling the that all races participate in those crimes, & they would be right to point that out.

jf

Since the EVILS of 'Christianity' as a group have to be discussed in reference to the DISTANT past.......your comparison is fundamentally flawed........it's like saying 'Yeah, I might have robbed a liquor store.......but your great, great, great grandfather was a horse thief!'.....it's only there to distort the issue, which is the problems of TODAY!

IF the Spanish Inquisition was going on in Spain right now, though, you might really have a point.

As it is it's mere deflection.....the POWER of Christianity over the Western World is more and more symbolic every day......not so the Islamic world.

 

[jarrod]

I think the history of Islam refutes that point......the Islamic world was on the violent offensive from it's founding for the next 1000 years.....it was only western technical advancements that finally turned the Islamic invasion back, at Vienna, Austria in 1683.......it has only been in the last 400 years that Islam has been kept at bay by western technology........and we are about to lose that technological.......because oil buy's technological parity.

Many folks refuse to see the situation for what it REALLY is......a clash of civilizations......the nature of Islamic fundamentally is that it cannot live in a world of unbelievers........there is dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb........and you either are a true believer, or you aren't.

Secularism is the only answer.......so long as fundamentalist true belief exists, those believes will not accept a secular world.


Discussing other religions is a deflection, as only one major religion on the planet exhibits conflict among it's followers where they border ANY other group of people on the planet, from Sudan, to the Philippines........the fundamentalist followers of Mohammad are at war with their neighbors.

And yes, there is a moderate form of Islam.......it's built on respect for the tradition, without literal belief in it's more dangerous aspects.......just as there is with Christianity and Judaism.......but Islam has not yet had it's Reformation.......honestly i'm not so sure Islam won't win this conflict and inherit Western Civilization!

the only real reason that islam provided a springboard for invasion was that it unified the arab people. prior to the birth of islam arabs were more interested in killing each other in blood feuds rather than worrying about infidels. islam in & of itself, outside of the context of arab culture, is not any better or worse than any other religion.

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

Want to see the difference in action? Go to Europe and put a derogatory drawing of Christ in a major newspaper, with your name and address attached to it.........then draw a picture of Mohammad.........see whether it's Christians or Muslim's that come calling on you.

 

[sgtmac_46]

the only real reason that islam provided a springboard for invasion was that it unified the arab people. prior to the birth of islam arabs were more interested in killing each other in blood feuds rather than worrying about infidels. islam in & of itself, outside of the context of arab culture, is not any better or worse than any other religion.

jf

I know that's the official politically correct line......but ideologies ARE better and worse than each other......ideologies and beliefs have power, and Islam is particularly powerful (I did not say bad or evil).

If we're discussing political ideologies you wouldn't make the claim that a political ideology was 'not any better or worse' than any other.....as we know how untrue that is.

Religion is political ideology with a supernatural reinforcement.

 

[seasoned]

I note that what ALWAYS happens when this discussion comes up, is a retort along the lines of 'Oh yeah, well Christianity, blah, blah, blah'.....as if making the argument about Christianity wins the point.....i'm not a Christian, i'm as secular as the day is long......and I see the problem as religious fundamentalism.......and the MOST powerful fundamentalist sect of any religion on the planet isn't Christianity, which is rather mild, even in it's most fundamentalist 'Fred Phelps' mode (Yelling idiotic statements outside funerals is nothing like killing thousands of people).

As a secularist, I view the fundamentalist aspect of Islam, which most estimate at 10% of the Islamic world, as one of the greatest threats to western civilization in existence......I certainly see it as a threat to Europe over the next 40 or 50 years.......

Yes, we have a tendency to shield religions from criticism.......but a religion is nothing but an ideology with a supernature reinforcer......so why can we not rationally discuss the ideological implications of certain beliefs just as we do political ideologies.........if anything religious ideologies, because of the supernatural reinforcer, can be VASTLY MORE DANGEROUS that political ideologies.......the majority of the Islamic world are peaceful, but a minority has a VERY DANGEROUS ideology that needs to be addressed.

And that, is what we, as a nation, are trying to do.

 

[sgtmac_46]

[/b]
And that, is what we, as a nation, are trying to do.

We're actually attacking individuals who embrace that ideology, which really isn't the same thing......and no, I don't have an answer as to what we should do......if I did i'd be in a different pay grade.

 

[jarrod]

You mean the Roman pagans who threw Christians to the lions? What you REALLY have there is the Roman state that does not tolerate any religion except the official one, christian, pagan or otherwise......not a product of the ideology, but a product of the state.....not the same thing.

pagan persecution of christians ended a good hundred years prior, retaliation doesn't hold up as an excuse. also a lot of people don't realize that christianity was legalized in rome before it was adopted as the official religion; rome did have periods of religious tolerance. even constantine allowed paganism to exist under a christian state.

Since the EVILS of 'Christianity' as a group have to be discussed in reference to the DISTANT past.......your comparison is fundamentally flawed........it's like saying 'Yeah, I might have robbed a liquor store.......but your great, great, great grandfather was a horse thief!'.....it's only there to distort the issue, which is the problems of TODAY!

IF the Spanish Inquisition was going on in Spain right now, though, you might really have a point.

As it is it's mere deflection.....the POWER of Christianity over the Western World is more and more symbolic every day......not so the Islamic world.

like i said, when christian nations lose there economic security we will see these crimes again. frankly, we've been too prosperous to kill ourselves for idealism.

the "evils" of christianity (or more accurately, fundamental christianity) are still out there in the forms of ignorance & political oppression.

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

pagan persecution of christians ended a good hundred years prior, retaliation doesn't hold up as an excuse. also a lot of people don't realize that christianity was legalized in rome before it was adopted as the official religion; rome did have periods of religious tolerance. even constantine allowed paganism to exist under a christian state.

You missed the point......the issue was the Roman state, not Christianity......there is a difference, and you well know it. The state persecuted those who didn't adhere to the current religion in the same manner........if the issue was Christianity, then it would have not fit the pattern that occured PRIOR to Christianity........and since it fit the SAME pattern of repression before Christianity, your point is moot........Christianity was not the cause.

In short......arguing that Christians did it is not the same as arguing Christianity causes it.....that's the issue.......correlation does not equal causation.

In the case of fundamentalist Islam, however, a firm link exists between cause and effect.

like i said, when christian nations lose there economic security we will see these crimes again. frankly, we've been too prosperous to kill ourselves for idealism.

the "evils" of christianity (or more accurately, fundamental christianity) are still out there in the forms of ignorance & political oppression.

jf

We are not a 'christian nation'......saying it for the purposes of this argument doesn't make it so.

I honestly think you guys have honed your argument with the notion that you'll be arguing with Christians so much, that you can't shift gears.

 

[jarrod]

i'll have to get back to this later, i'm about off work

 

[Twin Fist]

Since the EVILS of 'Christianity' as a group have to be discussed in reference to the DISTANT past.......your comparison is fundamentally flawed........it's like saying 'Yeah, I might have robbed a liquor store.......but your great, great, great grandfather was a horse thief!'.....it's only there to distort the issue, which is the problems of TODAY!

IF the Spanish Inquisition was going on in Spain right now, though, you might really have a point.

As it is it's mere deflection.....the POWER of Christianity over the Western World is more and more symbolic every day......not so the Islamic world.

QFMFT

thats the point I have been trying to make for the last 3 days, said so very very well.

 

[sgtmac_46]

i'll have to get back to this later, i'm about off work

No prob, we'll continue it another time.