More from the "Religion of Peace"

[Empty Hands]

So they dont control thier freaky deaky selves like people in most religions do.

Ugh. Maybe this earns me the ban hammer you deserve, but you are a sick ****ing bigot. Someday I hope you learn better.

 

[Twin Fist]

prove me wrong, dont just tell me I am

PROVE IT

 

[Twin Fist]

very classy

Ugh. Maybe this earns me the ban hammer you deserve, but you are a sick ****ing bigot. Someday I hope you learn better.

 

[Twin Fist]

by condemning all of Islam for what is demonstrably a minority viewpoint within Islam, you do yourself and whatever it is you're trying to say a disservice.

The GRAND MUFTI is not a minority viewpoint, so your point fails

I get what you are saying dude, but scratching around for some excuse for these people simply doesnt work, they are proud of what they believe and there is no justification for it in the modern world

 

[Ray]

Does the rest of the world have the right to bring terrorist acts to the US because Americans are slowly, but successfully indoctrinating the rest of the world into a consumer/instant gratification culture, completely disregarding pre-existing culture, having a direct hand in the mutation of the human race into fat, ignorant slobs?

I see you're in the mid-west too. I'm a transplant here and, although it seems like everyone is a fat ignorant slob, there are plenty of Americans who are neither. And there are even native mid-westerners who aren't.

 

[Twin Fist]

My response to this statement would have been completely different-I'd even have been in agreement, to a degree.

well, thats a pretty fair statement.

the Wahabi's are the one stirring up most of the crap,a nd they are the most neanderthall

fair enough

 

[elder999]

ihe doesnt PROFESS to speak for Islam, he DOES. He is the senior cleric, elected by the other clerics in the motherland of the religion. He isnt professing it, he IS it.

you know it too, just admitt it. This guy is their POPE

The GRAND MUFTI is not a minority viewpoint, so your point fails

The GRAND MUFTI of Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa against suicided bombing and terrorism in May of 2001-months ahead of 9/11. He's declared fatwa against those who aid terrorism-so much for his authority, or the acceptance of all of his viewpoints. :lol:

He's also condemned celebrating birthdays, but hey....

In any case, one has to consider not only how little his authority seems to extend, since 9/11 took place in spite of his fatwa against such actsianyway, but recognize that he's not the only Grand Mufti: there are the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem,the Grand Mufti of Egypt,the Grand Mufti of Istanbul, the Grand Mufti of Bosnia and Herzegovinia, the Grand Mufti of Syria,the Grand Mufti of Oman, the Grand Mufti of Yemen, the Grand Mufti of Lebanon,Grand Mufti of ALbania, Grand Mufti of Bulgaria,and,believe it or not, the Grand Mufti of Australia.

The title "Grand Mufti" conveys, by definition, to the highest elected religious authrority in a Sunni muslim country, or community (since a few of those places don't exactly meet the definition of "Sunni muslim country"). In Indonesia, however, they have a committee that serves as "the Grand Mufti, and, in places like Australia, that aren't "Sunni Muslim countries" this position has no authority recognized by the government (as opposed to Saudi Arabia) and can be elected to that position by one segment of the Sunni community and may not even be recognized by another segment of that comminity......

So, what he says is essentially, what he says, insofar as people seem to have some latitude in which Mufti they obey, and whether or not they obey any of them-this is especially true to the extent that the same man condemned terrorism and its tools as early as May 2001. Never mind the child-bride thing

 

[Kreth]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jeff Velten/Kreth
-MT Super Moderator-

 

[elder999]

. Given the fact, though, that our country does have enemies who claim to be Islamic, and use Islam to justify and further their ends, it is, while not understandable (to me), at least a familiar way of thinking. In the end, it comes down to that face of Islam being the only one that you know-you know nothing of Islamic people in Southeast Asia, you know nothing of Islamic people in Europe and Eastern Europe, you know nothing of Sufism, or any of the many faces of what might be called "moderate" Islam . <snip!>

You're right, it's not racist. It is ugly and bigoted. It is a display of the kind of prejudice and ignorance that doesn't lead to any kind of solution, and only leads to more problems. In the end, you would do well to learn more of the many different faces of Islam, and about the people who practice that faith, before making such statements.

So, now I can't get to sleep, because I need to say something.

I mean no insult by saying any of these things to you, John. When I say that to say those things is "ugly and bigoted," well, it's an opinion, and one that what you have said lends itself to. More importantly, when I say that it's a "display of prejudice and ignorance," I really mean no insult by that. It's a display of prejudice in that that's exactly what you're doing: prejudging 1.6 billion people, on the basis of what one man has said, and his followers may or may not adhere to. It's a display of ignorance in that you've ascribed a level of authority to that one man that doesn't exist: he's nothing like the Pope, he has no authority over Shia, other than to attest as his predecessors have that they are not Muslims, he has no authority over people outside of Saudi Arabia. It's a display of ignorance in that it fails to address the cultural differences that lead to things like Arab mistreatment of women and arranged marriages to children that have nothing to do with "Islam" and eveything to do with where they occur, and makes no note of the fact that they don't occur elsewhere, at least, not in the same way. It's a display of ignorance in that it fails to acknowledge those different "flavors" of Islam that take place around the world, and that the majority of those 1.6 billion belong to.

And mostly, saying it's a display of "prejudice and ignorance" isn't an insult. Without resorting to the English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for a dictionary) I can say that, well, prejudging is something that we've all been guilty of, right or wrong, from time to time, and that ignorance, when I use it, is merely to denote what it is: a lack of knowledge-one that I believe you've displayed in this thread. Were we discussing (and that's what's supposed to take place here) any number of things that I don't know about, I'd surely say that "I didn't know that." Were we discussing any number of things that I know quite a bit about, but others might know more, I might wind up saying the same thing. Where I clearly have knowledge that someone else doesn't, then family tradition, the format of these forums, and...well,for better or worse, my ego, compel me to say, "You're wrong, and here's why." I'd do the same about electronics, or sailing, or cooking, or history, or any number of the other things that I know a little bit about......once in a while, I even wind up doing the same about martial arts. Go figure....:lfao:

You've come to believe what you do, and espouse the viewpoints that you do, because that is, as I said, the only face of Islam that is presented to you regularly in the media-or at least, I'm guessing, the media you partake in-and you've had no reason to study or investigate further. I have friends and associates who are close to where you are on this spectrum-some of them, I won't even try discussing it with. I occasionally post on another forum where the owner has pretty much said that he won't tolerate any discussion of Islam as a positive thing, a "religion of peace," or any other "nonsense" like that. He's a "Christian Warrior," and "we're at war with Islam." End of discussion. I've gone to seminars and trained regularly with people who also have the same sort of viewpoint-though some of them have at least heard the arguments and come around to a more moderate point of view. It's difficult, though, to accept that people you otherwise admire and can learn much from, are so entrenched in their own self-imposed blindness.

Such things are ugly and bigoted things for them to do to themselves, and the things that they say often make them seem just this way.

In the end, I'm trying to tell you that you're better than this, John, or that you could be. Maybe that isn't my place, but I meant no insult.:asian:

 

[tellner]

Nicely done, Elder. Sorry I can't rep you at the moment.

 

[Carol]

Carol,
love ya babe

but to a point, i disagree. I think a lot of the marrying kids thing in islam is:
1) the prophet did it, they wanna be like the prophet

2) perverts and deviants there are not shunned, so they are more common. The religion tells them screwing a camel is ok, just kill it and sell the meat. Molesting little boys is ok, just dont penetrate them.

So they dont control thier freaky deaky selves like people in most religions do.And as far as deviency goes, getting it on with kids is pretty common.

ALL muslims? of course not. But theones that DONT think that way do so not becausefo the religion, they do it IN SPITE of the religion, cuz the religion tells them it is ok.

Its OK to disagree babe. A little tension means love has extra spice.

 

[MA-Caver]

Saudi Arabia is a backwards, benighted, barely prehensile sort of place.

Actually no they're not. We're talking about a place that has underwater restaurants, underwater hotels, office buildings that look like spinnakers on yachts, indoor ski-resorts, gold plated rolls royces, office buildings that actually rotate each floor!!
No, they're just so damned rich that they can do whatever the hell they want! They think probably: "Gonna complain about it? Well... hmm... guess we'll just up the price of oil infidel!"

 

[Twin Fist]

Elder, you may be many thing, but damn you can write. Sorta long winded and preachy, but eloquent.

I can respect that. I am not eloquent. When I write, i tend to short, simple verse. probably because I have so much running through my head, that I CANT type it all out. Plus it is a pain to go through all my posts and un-transpose all the letters I get backwards. I type like what a dyslexic sees, and I cant get it to stop. No idea why this happens, but I end up having to re-do alot of my content.

So my posts tend to be short, and to the point.

Plus it is my nature to be blunt.

Bluntly, I consider islam a cult of death. I consider pretty much all religion silly, but Islam is dangerous. No other religion that i know of commands it's followers to go out and KILL

Islam does. And they do.

No other religion I know of does that, and there is no excuse for it.

More people are killed in the name of Islam DAILY than any other religion can claim in a YEAR. And at least Christianity grew up, even if some of it's followers didnt.....

But thats the catch, with the idiot Christians who do stupid things in the name of religion, it is the people doing it, they are not commanded to do so by the book

in Islam that is not the case.

If my opinion offends Muslims, i dont care, they need to take a long hard look at the book and thier prophet. All i do is repete the truth. And it isnt my fault that the TRUTH about Islam isnt pretty.

to me it doesnt matter that "not all mulims are like that" because like I told Carol, the ones that are not doing stupid crap are that way IN SPITE of thier religion, not because of it.

Islam commands stupid **** from it's followers. I cannot respect it. And way too many of it's clerics support the scriptures stupidities and encourage the believers to do even MORE stupid crap.

Plus I aint real cool with conversion by force. I hated that when I found out the catholics did it, and I hate it now.

 

[Twin Fist]

*swoon*

I have to admitt I do love it when a lady calls me on my ********

Its OK to disagree babe. A little tension means love has extra spice.

 

[MA-Caver]

Elder, you may be many thing, but damn you can write. Sorta long winded and preachy, but eloquent.

I can respect that. I am not eloquent. When I write, i tend to short, simple verse. probably because I have so much running through my head, that I CANT type it all out. Plus it is a pain to go through all my posts and un-transpose all the letters I get backwards. I type like what a dyslexic sees, and I cant get it to stop. No idea why this happens, but I end up having to re-do alot of my content.

So my posts tend to be short, and to the point.

Plus it is my nature to be blunt.

Bluntly, I consider islam a cult of death. I consider pretty much all religion silly, but Islam is dangerous. No other religion that i know of commands it's followers to go out and KILL

Islam does. And they do.

No other religion I know of does that, and there is no excuse for it.

More people are killed in the name of Islam DAILY than any other religion can claim in a YEAR. And at least Christianity grew up, even if some of it's followers didn't.....

But that's the catch, with the idiot Christians who do stupid things in the name of religion, it is the people doing it, they are not commanded to do so by the book

in Islam that is not the case.

If my opinion offends Muslims, I don't care, they need to take a long hard look at the book and their prophet. All i do is repeat the truth. And it isn't my fault that the TRUTH about Islam isn't pretty.

to me it doesn't matter that "not all Muslims are like that" because like I told Carol, the ones that are not doing stupid crap are that way IN SPITE of their religion, not because of it.

Islam commands stupid **** from it's followers. I cannot respect it. And way too many of it's clerics support the scriptures stupidities and encourage the believers to do even MORE stupid crap.

Plus I ain't real cool with conversion by force. I hated that when I found out the Catholics did it, and I hate it now.

TF, It does matter that "not all Muslims are like that" It matters very much. I've far too many friends who are Muslims to agree with that statement. They despise and are deeply embarrassed by their radical brethren. They know that these twists and reworkings of their Koran are wrong. They choose not to follow those so-called leaders who preach these atrocious mis-interpretations of that book.
It is the individual that needs to be taken care of, the individual who needs to be despised and hated and punished... not the faith. True there are a lot of individuals who are following this crap and living it. They are not doing it because Allah tells them so, they're doing it because another individual is telling them that Allah is telling them so.
Blame the men not the God, blame the reader who misinterprets, or intentionally twists around what they get from the book... not the book.
The Bible is full of the same stuff in the Old Testament, and there are isolated pockets of people who still live by it. Isolated individuals not the whole.
I think it's terrible yes that 10 yr. old girls are being forced to marry, I think it's horrible that women are being circumcised to prevent them from enjoying sexual unions and from being tempted to stray from their husbands. I think it's horrifying that people strap explosives to their bodies and walk into a crowd and hope to kill as many as possible including themselves.
They were all dictated by men, individual men who sought out like minded individuals and banded together and through coercion, rhetortic and whatever else convince many more individuals to follow them.
Curse the individuals not the true faith of Islam.
Get to know the true Islamic faith before condemning it.

I've learned much about it from my friends/associates and know it's not as radical as those bastards who give it a bad name make it to be.

 

[Andrew Green]

They despise and are deeply embarrassed by their radical brethren. They know that these twists and reworkings of their Koran are wrong. They choose not to follow those so-called leaders who preach these atrocious mis-interpretations of that book.

Exactly, and who is to say that Christianity would not be used in the same way if the circumstances where right.

Right now there are people using it to influence others, guys like Jerry Falwell definitely come to mind, or going back a little farther to Joe McCarthy using it as a way to unite against "godless commies."

President Bush even used Christianity as a way to sell the Iraq war on a few occasions.

Religion is rarely the reason for conflict, but very often used as the justification, and the means to get the general population to support it. It also is a way to maintain sanity in war. "No atheist in a foxhole" sort of logic, but it isn't just the fear of death that moves people to religion, it is a way of justifying immoral actions, like killing people, and turning them into moral actions, like killing enemies of God for which you will be rewarded in the afterlife.

At the core we are all the same, we have a sense of morality (most of us anyways) and killing people who we have no personal reason to hate goes against that. Religion gives a reason, and it dehumanizes the enemy.

Personally I think which religion will get turned into a weapon has little to do with the actual religion and more to do with what the population that is involved believes. If the areas that where in conflict where Christian, then they would be strapping bombs to their chest according to what the bible said, rather then the Koran, but the result would be the same.

I also think you are an example of this process, you are showing hatred to an entire group of people based on them having different beliefs, regardless of whether they actually believe in the radical aspects that you assign to all of them. You use words like "evil" when describing them, which dehumanizes them and makes immoral action against them justifiable.

Now, as for attacking Christians and ignoring the crimes of Islam, that is just not happening, but you are seeing it because it is what you want to see. The crimes committed in the name of Islam and the hate expressed by some of its leaders is horrible, no one will deny that. The only thing we say is that it is not Islam that causes this, but something else. Islam might be the way it is explained, but when the same thing happens in populations with other religions those religions are used.

 

[elder999]

Elder, you may be many thing, but damn you can write. Sorta long winded and preachy, but eloquent.

Thanks, but what about the content, TF?

I mean, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia is not "like the pope."

The vast majority of the adherents of Islam are not Wahhabists, do not live under sharia, do not oppress women (any more than other men do in their country ), do not espouse terrorism or even embrace the way that some have twisted the idea of jihad.

Bluntly, I consider islam a cult of death. I consider pretty much all religion silly, but Islam is dangerous. No other religion that i know of commands it's followers to go out and KILL

Islam does. And they do.

I'd argue that "Islam" doesn't; men do, and use a twisted interpretation of "Islam" to accomplish their violent political ends.

One could also argue that the Old Testament commands Israel to go out and KILL, and they do, but their doing so is politically justified, and seen by many as righteous self-defense.

More people are killed in the name of Islam DAILY than any other religion can claim in a YEAR. And at least Christianity grew up, even if some of it's followers didnt.....

What chance does Islam have to "grow up," as you said, if there is no chance for dialogue with its majority-the moderate, mainstream adherents? They are our best bet for eliminating the very real problem of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism-not the "war on terror" and certainly not trying to wipe Islam off the planet. Such actions justify the terrorist's behavior in their minds. We will face another attack on our soil some day, in spite of all our best efforts to prevent it, and do away with those who would perpetrate it, because one of the fruits of our efforts is to grow more terrorists in response.

If my opinion offends Muslims, i dont care, they need to take a long hard look at the book and thier prophet. All i do is repete the truth. And it isnt my fault that the TRUTH about Islam isnt pretty.

And I say that you need to take a long hard look at the book and their prophet, as well as how the majority of them live today-not just in other countries, but right here in the U.S.

Islam commands stupid **** from it's followers. I cannot respect it. And way too many of it's clerics support the scriptures stupidities and encourage the believers to do even MORE stupid crap.

Plus I aint real cool with conversion by force. I hated that when I found out the catholics did it, and I hate it now.

Most religions can be seen as commanding stupid **** of its followers from some point of view. Many of them have scriptures that command violence of one sort, or actions that we view as "uncivilized," that are open to abuse and misinterpretation. The fact remains that the majority of Islam's adherents don't follow such interpretations, and don't live their lives advocating violence, a twisted interpretation of jihad, or bearing any more enmity towards "the west" as the rest of the world.

The enemy isn't "Islam."

 

[Twin Fist]

I think you got it backwards elder

the enemy isnt muslims, at least not all, because as you say, they dont all act like fools

the enemy IS islam

the book says flat out to seek out the infidel and kill them, to convert them by force, to have sex with 9 year olds.

Thats the difference between Islam and christianity.

Caver,
it isnt a twist or re-working of the koran, the koran says it FLAT OUT

thier religion commands violence, it is right there in the book
thier prophet was a child molester
thier scripture commands them to be like the prophet

THAT is islam, I have read the Koran, have you? I aint making this **** up.

if they dont like it, they ought to find another church.

because that is what the religion itself IS

this isnt about them acting bad, they dont act bad because some isolated imam tells them to, the PROPHET tells them to.

Christianity is different because all jesus ever said was to love thy nieghbor.

thats it.

So when so called christians act like asshats, they are going against christs words

when mulims kill infidels they are following the prophets commands

Your friends caver, are, from a theological standpoint, not very good muslims. because they dont follow the words of the prophet.

People in the modern word are just so afraid to tell it like it is, but in this case there is no reasn to be, the entire religion is FLAWED from the start. And saying so is perfectly fine because it is true.

truth is the ultimate defense.

 

[Andrew Green]

Thats the difference between Islam and christianity.

Have you read the bible? It's got some not so nice things in it as well, guess there aren't many "good Christians" around?

Anyways, this seems relevant:

[yt]kAIpRRZvnJg[/yt]

 

[elder999]

Actually no they're not. We're talking about a place that has underwater restaurants, underwater hotels, office buildings that look like spinnakers on yachts, indoor ski-resorts, gold plated rolls royces, office buildings that actually rotate each floor!!

Most of those things are in Dubai, though there's an excellent underwater restaurant in Israel, and the Emirates has a ski slope in one of their malls.

Most of Saudi's attractions deal with ridiculous consumerism....really nice jewelry stores......

No, they're just so damned rich that they can do whatever the hell they want! They think probably: "Gonna complain about it? Well... hmm... guess we'll just up the price of oil infidel!"

That oil is going to prove to have been a curse to Saudi Arabia. Not so much Dubai and the UAR, because they've done a good job of creating business, shipping and tourism infrastructure. Saudi has nothing else to offer but oil, and oil won't last.....it's dying as we speak.

And then they'll be back to camels, goats and sand....:lfao: