More from the "Religion of Peace"

[Twin Fist]

exactly WHAT do you disagree with just as much as child molestation?

Why stop at Islam? As far as religions go, it really doesn't stand out.

Top Christian leaders have said things that I disagree with just as strongly, should it go too?

 

[CoryKS]

Interesting article: The (Really) Moderate Muslims of Kosovo

 

[theletch1]

Wow, we're only on page two and already I'm here nudging folks back toward the general rule of the board... friendly discussion. Direct insults at one another, blanket statements, sniping... whatever, it doesn't belong. Attack the message not the messenger. If I have to call ya'll down again it'll be straight to bed without supper. Really, though, the heat is already rising in here. Stop, take a deep breath and think about what you're gonna post before hand. Let's try to keep this thread open for a few pages, shall we?

 

[DavidCC]

Not when she is cooking the meal.

I've yet to meet the woman talented enough to cook and nag at the same time.

 

[tellner]

TF, I'm assuming you're some sort of Christian. If you'd really like the same degree of bigotry and bile applied to the history and primitive superstitions of your tribe that you are so eager to heap on theirs I would be willing to oblige. But you will not like it. It comes with lots and lots of footnotes and plenty of evidence. And if you can rise above the spinal reflex of rage and denial you will hate what will get stuck in front of you. You will quite literally hate it.

Now please sit down and act like a grownup.

 

[elder999]

moral reletivism is a STUPID, assinine, backwards-***, retarded way of thinking. People that engage in it...............


well. whatever.

Who are we to judge?

Ya know, your right. Moral relativism is STUPID, asinine, bass-ackwards, and retarded way of thinking. Let's apply some moral absolutism:

The Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps engage in a variety of stupid activities, therefore ALL "Christians" are equally guilty and suspect of those activities.

The FLDS has encouraged multiple marriages to underage girls, therefore all Mormons and, by association, all Chrisitians, are guilty of at the very least condoning statutory rape, if not rape,incest and child molesting.

The Christian Identity movement in the U.S. encourages violence against Jews, blacks, other minorities and the U.S. government, therefore ALL Christians are guilty of hate crimes, bigotry and insurrection.

I could, quite literally, go on, and on, and on.

The idea of dismissing or doing away with a religion that is practiced in a wide variety of ways and in a wide variety of places is not attractive. In fact, to suggest as much seems almost mentally unbalanced to me. Given the fact, though, that our country does have enemies who claim to be Islamic, and use Islam to justify and further their ends, it is, while not understandable (to me), at least a familiar way of thinking. In the end, it comes down to that face of Islam being the only one that you know-you know nothing of Islamic people in Southeast Asia, you know nothing of Islamic people in Europe and Eastern Europe, you know nothing of Sufism, or any of the many faces of what might be called "moderate" Islam .I know and pray with some Sufis- while they're hardly what I'd call "moderate" in their faith-where they differ is their politics, and the application of their religion; they would never impose the rules of their faith on others, just as they would never strap on explosives to blow themselves up in the act of murdering innocents.

This isnt just SOME cleric, this is the GRand Mufti of SA, thats like the Pope comming out and saying it is ok to rape little boys. So EH's comparison to LDS practicing Plural marraige FAILS.

And yet, for years, and years, and years, and years-up until very recently, NO POPE had publicly spoken out against raping little boys, and so, for members of the Catholic clergy, it was "OK" to rape little boys, right here in the U.S. Of course, my father and my family have, through his work, been friends with quite a few members of the Catholic clergy. It's hard to imagine any of them raping or condoning or even ignoring the rape of little boys. Of course, I can't really know after all these years, but it doesn't matter: applying "moral ABSOLUISM" they're just as guilty of those rapes that unquestionably took place as if they had committed them themselves. As are all the Popes of the 20th century. As are all the nuns. As are all the rest of the clergy. As are all Catholics.

Why is it that some zipper=headed morans, LIBERALS ALL, will exucse ANYTHING done in the name of Islam, yet condemn ANY exercise of Christianity? even something as harmless as a nativity scene?

Not excusing ANYTHING done in the name of Islam. Pretty sure that I'm not exactly a LIBERAL. :lol: Certain that I'm not a moron, "zipper=headed" or otherwise.

I know that I'm probably the last to condemn ANY exercise of Christianity, especially something as harmless as a nativity scene.

On the other hand, I refuse to condemn all of "Islam," because of what a few do in its name.

Wishing for the removal of Islam, a religion, is racist HOW exactly Nole? oh thats right, it isnt,it cant be, but, you just like to throw out whatever insult you have handy.

You're right, it's not racist. It is ugly and bigoted. It is a display of the kind of prejudice and ignorance that doesn't lead to any kind of solution, and only leads to more problems. In the end, you would do well to learn more of the many different faces of Islam, and about the people who practice that faith, before making such statements.

After all, I could as easily say, Priests raping little boys. That kind of thing makes me wish for the removal of Catholicism from the planet. or Marrying old men to their underage nieces. I really wish we could just outlaw Mormonism.

Islam is a religion founded by a pedophile,

This is a viewpoint that disregards the facts of that marriage as Islam presents them, as well as the fact that we're viewing those "facts" through a cultural lens and temporal gulf of more than 700 years. By this distorted viewpoint, Davy Crockett was a pedophile, as was Thomas Jefferson. I could go on, and on, and on, and on, but you get the idea......

 

[Gordon Nore]

exactly WHAT do you disagree with just as much as child molestation?

TF,

If you really want to go there, then we can make a very a good argument for erasing the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Mormons.

 

[Twin Fist]

Now please sit down and act like a grownup.

comming from YOU thats a joke. When I want your opinion Tellner, i will just go read the VillageVoice. No real difference.

Not to mention the FACT that while you accuse ME of rage , i was the one insulted personally, called racist, and bigoted.

yeah, when people call me racist i tend to get upset.

When people pooh pooh the ATROCITIES of Islam, MODERN DAY ISLAM and compare it to things that happened in Christianity CENTURIES AGO, I tend to get annoyed with thier idiocy.

actually, come to think of it, i'll never want your opinion.

Now now elder

are you really gonna make me spank your silly self for using logic with holes in it big enough to drive a truck through?

"The Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps engage in a variety of stupid activities, therefore ALL "Christians" are equally guilty and suspect of those activities."

BZZZZZZ wrong answer dude, you win NOTHING Phelps is an asshat of biblical proportions, I agree, but he has a congregation of about 20, and no one else listens to him. AGAIN for teh dense, this was the GRAND MUFTI, the equivilent of the POPE. Arguably the most powerfull single cleric in ALL ISLAM

FLDS is a TINY subsect of the LDS church, itself a SMALL subsect of cristianity. Comparing the illegal actions of SOME clerics in the FLDS (not even the Prophet, just some clerics did that) is ignorant and reeks of fail

I could go on and on and on, but your comparisons never really get any better. There is simply no comparison between the GRAND MUFTI saying something stupid and any other christian leader saying something stupid. Christianity grew up. Islam refuses to do so.

As the article points out, the Mufti HAS to say it is ok to molest children, after all, the Prophet did it, it HAS to be ok.

Your comparisons to tiny groups in the christianity: EPIC FAIL

oh, and btw Elder, as for this:

"Priests raping little boys. That kind of thing makes me wish for the removal of Catholicism"

i would tend to agree. But the differeence between me and you is that i know that catholic isnt inclusiveof all christianity. If you wanted to lobby for the destruction of the catholic church, i could understand why. I am still pissed at them over the Aztec thing.Maybe you would be more chartable if i had said "whahabi islam needs to go"
and also:

"By this distorted viewpoint, Davy Crockett was a pedophile, as was Thomas Jefferson. I could go on, and on, and on, and on, but you get the idea......"

maybe they were, but I dont consider them prophets.........

 

[Twin Fist]

the catholic church perhaps, not the Mormans.

BUT not really the Catholic church either because the pope never said it was ok to molest boys. he just didnt speak out against it in public till he was forced to.

This Muft is the equivilent of the pope saying it is OK to molest boys, something the pope has never done, publicly at least.

By and large the Mormans are prob the most moral people on the planet. The compound living little house on the prarie dress wearing types are outcasts among Mormans just like the are among all decent people. So that comparison fails big guy.

TF,

If you really want to go there, then we can make a very a good argument for erasing the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Mormons.

 

[Carol]

I really don't want to twist this discussion in to a discussion of arranged marriages. Which...is something that I know a bit about considering I was almost in one by my own chosing.

Marrying children at that age, while I find the idea abhorrent, is less to do with sex and more to do with power and tribal politics. Making sure the right children from the right families marry each other when they are of age, if you will. No, I don't agree with this practice. No I don't think its right, or healthy.

But...at the same time I don't think its all about child molestation either, and I really do think that care needs to be taken to not whitewash all Muslims as violent child molesters.

Islam is not "just" a religion. It is a religion, but it's also a culture and a system of government. However one of the strongest weapons against Shari'a fundamentalist encroachment is other Muslims - ones that do not share the same sociopolitical viewpoint as the Wahabis. These folks do not deserve to be painted with crimes they did not commit.

 

[Twin Fist]

Carol,
love ya babe

but to a point, i disagree. I think a lot of the marrying kids thing in islam is:
1) the prophet did it, they wanna be like the prophet

2) perverts and deviants there are not shunned, so they are more common. The religion tells them screwing a camel is ok, just kill it and sell the meat. Molesting little boys is ok, just dont penetrate them.

So they dont control thier freaky deaky selves like people in most religions do.And as far as deviency goes, getting it on with kids is pretty common.

ALL muslims? of course not. But theones that DONT think that way do so not becausefo the religion, they do it IN SPITE of the religion, cuz the religion tells them it is ok.

 

[tellner]

TF,

If you really want to go there, then we can make a very a good argument for erasing the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Mormons.

Or we can go with the Epileptic Murderer of Tarsus, Saul the Salesman. How closely do we really want to follow a guy who believes that every man should cut his balls of for the sake of his religion? Or that it would be best if everyone were celibate just like him?

That's just the beginning. Looked at long enough every religion appears, how did someone put it, "like the ravings of a febrile toddler".

 

[Gordon Nore]

the catholic church perhaps, not the Mormans.

BUT not really the Catholic church either because the pope never said it was ok to molest boys. he just didnt speak out against it in public till he was forced to.

...which is moral cowardice. The Pope was complicit in his silence. Same dog, different fleas. The Papacy's lack of leadership is akin to condoning immoral behaviour. Qui tacet consentire videtur.

This Muft is the equivilent of the pope saying it is OK to molest boys, something the pope has never done, publicly at least.

This from someone who lectures the entire forum about moral relativism. You are arguing that it is less immoral to silently condone evil than to actively promote it. I'm fuzzy on my religious education, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that religious scholars from Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, would find the two closer together rather further apart. And that's not moral relativism either -- it's ethics.

By and large the Mormans are prob the most moral people on the planet. The compound living little house on the prarie dress wearing types are outcasts among Mormans just like the are among all decent people.

By your logic, what Mormons say about these guys is irrelevant. They identify as Mormons themselves. Just as the dimwit in your Fox News story professes to speak for Islam. I encounter scores of Muslim children everyday whose parents would lay down their lives rather than see their daughters enslaved as child brides.

So that comparison fails big guy.

Actually ...it does... your quite right. It fails for the same reason that your rationale for removing Islam fails.

And don't call me, "Big guy."

 

[Twin Fist]

a febrile toddler?

thats a potent image.

oh and just as an aside, the movie Jumper sucked epic quantities of suck

just needed to throw that in there

 

[Twin Fist]

...which is moral cowardice. The Pope was complicit in his silence. Same dog, different fleas. The Papacy's lack of leadership is akin to condoning immoral behaviour. Qui tacet consentire videtur.

i dont see it as moral cowardice so much as prob just not knowing how wide spread the problem was.

And there is a LOT of difference between saying something is ok, and not saying something is ok. The POPE never said it was ok.

This from someone who lectures the entire forum about moral relativism. You are arguing that it is less immoral to silently condone evil than to actively promote it.

just saying it is different, so the effort to compare the two is silly. Not saying one is ok and the other is bad, both suck, but they are not comparible on any real level.

By your logic, what Mormons say about these guys is irrelevant. They identify as Mormons themselves. Just as the dimwit in your Fox News story professes to speak for Islam.

he doesnt PROFESS to speak for Islam, he DOES. He is the senior cleric, elected by the other clerics in the motherland of the religion. He isnt professing it, he IS it.

you know it too, just admitt it. This guy is their POPE

Actually ...it does... your quite right. It fails for the same reason that your rationale for removing Islam fails.

And don't call me, "Big guy."

Sure thing Sparky

 

[Gordon Nore]

Sure thing Sparky

Drats!!! I've been outsmarted again by silver-tongued logic. My day will come.

 

[Twin Fist]

LOL, I love you man!

 

[elder999]

.Maybe you would be more chartable if i had said "whahabi islam needs to go".........

My response to this statement would have been completely different-I'd even have been in agreement, to a degree. I say "to a degree" because, interestingly, the majority of Islam as practiced in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzistan and Tajikstan are wahhabists, and, for a variety of reasons, they have been , as far as international politics and terrorism go,relatively harmless, and they don't seem to have embraced the same radical interpretation of sharia that their more western brethren do-yet.

In any case, yeah-I could get behind a more nuanced and educated viewpoint like that. All of that other stuff that I said about Fred Phelps, the Catholics and minority LDS sects was really kind of the point that you made for me: by condemning all of Islam for what is demonstrably a minority viewpoint within Islam, you do yourself and whatever it is you're trying to say a disservice.

 

[Empty Hands]

Wow, we're only on page two and already I'm here nudging folks back toward the general rule of the board... friendly discussion.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the tone and conclusions of the thread almost preclude friendly discussion. Imagine one of our Muslim members reacting to this thread, and the suggestion that his or her faith (and presumably the members thereof) should be exterminated.

 

[Empty Hands]

....this was the GRAND MUFTI, the equivilent of the POPE. Arguably the most powerfull single cleric in ALL ISLAM

By this statement alone you reveal how very little you know about Islam. I would try to educate you, but as usual, it would be ignored in favor of what you already "know."