MMA is like Facebook?

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry. All this started over my signature. I'm not wrong tho. I apologize sincerely if I offended anyone not my intention. Forgive me (bows face down)

It actually has little or nothing to do with your signature. It has pretty much everything to do with you posting nonsense. Your signature is nonsense, but it pales in the face of some of the other statements you've made.

That being said, if you can avoid the tendancy to post fantasy ninjer nonsense, you will find that the members of this forum can provide a wealth of information on a huge range of topics.

On the topic at hand, as others have pointed out, if you can't understand why MMA might well be considered a style of it's own, then perhaps you should look within.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Think about it...when you say "I'm fighting in the style of Mixed Martial Arts" doesn't make sense to me. You should have a primary art as your style in my opinion.

Ninjutsu is seperated into various sections. Each section focuses on a different segment of skills. Some focus on weapons. Some on striking. Some on grappling. Some on joint locks.

Hey! Ninjutsu is an MMA!

 

[Dirty Dog]

I guarantee you if were talking hypothetical...Any MMA fighter would get destroyed if they went into the ring with Ninjutsu Grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just so that everyone can see what happens, the choke starts at about 1:51 when the guy on the bottom shifts the guy on top's right arm across his body. The guy on top gets rolls because he has no base now on that side, and ends up losing consciousness completely at about 2:02 where you can see his arm drop off the rope.

Prior to that, the guy on top was just basically stalling.

On topic, though, I would say my opinion is that MMA is largely its own style now, although there are what I'd consider "source" styles that are still very important. More and more kids are getting into MMA having had no martial arts training outside of the MMA gym.

That said, any MMAist who is interested in competing at a high level will have to work very hard to refine techniques in all ranges of combat. Many compete actively in grappling tournaments, including Judo, IBJJF tournaments and submission grappling leagues such as ADCC. Many also have Muay Thai records, boxing records and will cross train with all kinds of martial artists to garner an edge in their sport. The luckiest get to train with Steven Seagal. (that's a joke)

Point is, like all other martial arts styles, there are going to be generalists and specialists. There are people interested in making a career out of their style and others who do not. Those who do will dig ever deeper into the well.

This. QFT.

 

[Kalamazoo Ninja]

Ninjutsu is seperated into various sections. Each section focuses on a different segment of skills. Some focus on weapons. Some on striking. Some on grappling. Some on joint locks.

Hey! Ninjutsu is an MMA!

Check and mate Dog. You got me...almost forgot Ninjutsu's foundation is based on the 9 different schools of Budo Grandmaster Hatsumi inherited. Ahhh a fun little debate none the less.

 

[Cyriacus]

I guarantee you if were talking hypothetical...Any MMA fighter would get destroyed if they went into the ring with Ninjutsu Grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei!

Since were all hypothetical and stuff...
$20 says i could hypothetically take Hatsumi Sensei in his sleep using a weapon. :lurk:

 

[Steve]

I guarantee you if were talking hypothetical...Any MMA fighter would get destroyed if they went into the ring with Ninjutsu Grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei!

There's a difference between hypothesis and pretend. If we are playing make believe, I'm the long lost Hatsumi heir... The product of a forbidden love between him and an American tourist.


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[Kalamazoo Ninja]

Since were all hypothetical and stuff...
$20 says i could hypothetically take Hatsumi Sensei in his sleep using a weapon. :lurk:

Doubt it.

 

[Cyriacus]

Doubt it.

Youre welcome to have whatever doubts you like.

 

[Kalamazoo Ninja]

Hatsumi has mystic powers I would not mess with him or even joke

 

[Steve]

I stole his amulet. Hatsumi never saw it coming, and now I have his mystical powers. Muwahahahaha.


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[Chris Parker]

Miles. Stop. You are still wrong in, well, pretty much everything. Take that from someone who's been studying your art for twenty years, son. You're less than a year in, and a 9th Kyu, and frankly have a head full of fantasy, especially where the art and Hatsumi are concerned. Seriously, stop now. You really don't have a clue yet... at this point, you should be asking questions, not saying what you think is true (because, well, it ain't).

 

[Kalamazoo Ninja]

Ok thanks. I'm just a big dum dum with a small brain.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, you're just overly convinced with propaganda, and inexperienced. There's an old saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this is a very good example of it... with a small amount of experience, and no real knowledge to speak of, you are believing you know what the reality is... and you don't. But that belief has lead you to post things that are grossly inaccurate, and refused to take any correction on them.

 

[Chris Parker]

You know, rather than just tell you "you're wrong", I think I might take each of your posts here and demonstrate how wrong they are, as well as why. I hope that you take that in the spirit of helping you (through correction), rather than being "picked on".

Ninja focus on breaking your spirit rather than the body...if you break one the other follows...I would be very excited to see an experienced Ninjutsu practioner get in a MMA ring. Remember MMA is a sport...Ninpo Taijutsu is for life or death situations

Right, first one. No, "ninja" do not focus on "breaking the spirit rather than the body". Nor do the martial traditions presently associated with "ninjutsu". Nor is the focus on "breaking the body". The focus, in fact, varies depending on which system you're talking about. And, as far as being excited to see an "experienced Ninjutsu practitioner get in a MMA ring", don't be too hopeful about that. Due to very, very different training ideologies, methodologies, and more, frankly, the ninjutsu practitioner would be in a lot of trouble. When it comes to the idea of "MMA is a sport (well, yes, it's an approach geared around a competitive arena, sure).... Ninpo Taijutsu is for life or death situations", I almost don't know where to start with that... Firstly, get rid of the fantasy, as it's not helping you. Ninpo Taijutsu (Budo Taijutsu) is a modern construct, and is very removed from "life or death situations"... but, then again, so is modern (social) violence, for the most part. Then, you get to the older material that the modern "ninpo taijutsu" is based on... and a fair amount of that is nothing to do with "life or death", other than the weaponry skills. In fact, schools such as Gyokko Ryu teach not to take things to that extreme.

So, in short, your understanding of the focus is wrong, your estimation of the effectiveness in a different arena is off, and your thoughts on the areas of application for both are incorrect.

I mean typically today every MMA fighter needs to have basic skill in:
.Judo/Wrestling
.Karate/striking/boxing

Kicking really is nothing special in the MMA world...all I ever see is that stupid Mui Tai side kick which is very easy to counter.

What would really separate you as an expert fighter is if you have skill in:
.Counter Punching (Ninjutsu/Jujutsu)
.Grappling/Joint manipulation (Ninjutsu/Jujutsu)
.Warrior Spirit and endurance (Ninjutsu/Jujutsu)

If you want to add some wing chun or kung fu to the mix that would only help

Right. Miles, you might have missed this when you signed up, but this site is set up as "the Friendly Martial Art Discussion Board".... referring to aspects of other people's arts as "stupid" is a quick way to get people off-side, and have your experience here far less than positive. But to the thrust of this post:

You show that you don't understand what the kick you're criticizing is (it's not a side kick, and really not that easy to stop/counter, especially not as easy as you think). And no-one is saying that there is anything special in MMA.... what it is is a collection of training approaches and methodologies that have been developed and proven to be effective in a particular arena. It doesn't need to be special, just to work. And, so you understand, the approaches of the "ninjutsu" methods just aren't designed for such an arena. And adding Wing Chun or Kung Fu (whatever you mean by that...) is, plainly, a terrible idea. You end up with a range of different approaches to the same idea, many of which directly contradict the others, which just leaves a mess and a lack of skill. As far as the three areas you think are needed to be "separate(d)... as an expert fighter", do you really think that MMA competitors don't have spirit and endurance? Or the ability to counter punch? Or grapple? Honestly, this post just shows how much you don't understand about either subject.

Fight me if you don't like me. MMA is not a art it is a sport. Mixed Martial arts meaning its using previously existing martial arts. Anyone who thinks MMA is an actual style is an idiot.

Again, "friendly martial arts discussion"... comments such as "fight me if you don't like me" can be interpreted as a challenge, and result in immediate banning. Same with calling anyone who disagrees with you an idiot. Cause, frankly, you're wrong. You're taking an absolute beginners understanding of martial arts (that it's to do with "techniques", and that if the same thing is used in different approaches, then it's the same thing), and failing to have any real insight into what a martial art really is.

A martial art is a particular approach, a methodology (that includes technical approaches, training methods, and specific contexts) designed to attain a specific goal. Now, that goal can be "win tournaments", or it can be "preserve old knowledge", or it can be "survive a sudden assault", or it can be "command warriors on a battlefield", or anything, really. The fact that the context is competitive (sport) doesn't make it any less a martial art. Oh, and so you know, the term "Mixed Martial Art" doesn't necessarily mean that it uses previously existing martial arts... it really is a distinct system/approach all of it's own these days. That name came from the early UFC days, where it was specific arts against each other (making the tournaments "mixed martial arts tournaments", not meaning that each competitor was using techniques from a range of arts, more that it wasn't just karate versus karate, or judo versus judo), and was later applied to a training and competing approach that took from a range of systems, in order to create a new whole from the disparate parts. So, uh, anyone who thinks it isn't an actual style hasn't got any clue about what makes something an actual style.

I was talking to the guy who called me a troll. He didn't contribute anything to the conversation and insulted me.

Your responce was far from the best, though, wouldn't you say? And, really, based on your posts, where you were dissing MMA, promoting "ninjutsu", and not listening to anyone, thinking you were a troll (here to stir up trouble, rather than discuss things) was pretty well a fair call. It was then up to you to demonstrate that he was wrong, not to prove him right with a post that goes against the ToS (Terms of Service) you agreed to when signing up here.

Let me clarify. When you play for sport (Judo/Karate/MMA) typically the losers are not dead.

And all martial arts came from China

Again, that's not the aim of the techniques in ninjutsu either. And no, all martial arts did not come from China. There is no one place all martial arts came from.

True the martial way is to preserve life but when you are talking about arts that originated on the battlefield such as Ninjutsu. It would be foolish to think the techniques couldn't kill you. Budo Ninpo Taijutsu is an art of survival...thinking it as a sport would be a grave mistake should you ever fight a Ninja master!

And sure I guess savages hitting each other with sticks could be considered 'martial art' but when you talk sophisticated martial arts your talking China...thousands of years not centuries

Ninjutsu did not originate on the battlefield. And, when it comes to arts that are "battlefield arts", that doesn't mean what you think it does... it has little to nothing to do with fighting on the field itself. Your history is also a fair bit off, by the way. You can pre-date things in China with systematic approaches to combative engagements (yep, even sports!) in ancient Greece, Egypt, Turkey....

Oh, and stop with the "deadly ninja master" thing. You need to understand context before you can make any assessment like that... and your assessment is off in a number of ways.

The history of the origins of Ninjutsu have always been shrouded in mystery

Depends who you talk to. But really, that doesn't help your arguments at all.

Just because you can't trace its origins over thousands of years doesn't mean it has no historical importance.

Yeah... not sure of the context you're meaning here... I didn't see anyone say anything about historical importance at all, nor about anything being traced (or not) over thousands of years....

I don't claim Ninjutsu as the backbone our Grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei does and I agree. I'm not racist. I hate you dog. Ninjutsu came from China (supposedly) and was perfected in Japan

Actually, Hatsumi has quoted Takamatsu as saying that ninjutsu is the essence of martial arts (not the backbone), and that is mainly down to a particular emphasis based on his training and teachings. I don't think you understand it enough to say if you agree with it or not. Ninjutsu did not come from China, though, but (according to the teachings of a few systems) the original methods that would mature into a couple of the Ryu can trace themselves back to China. That's a far cry from saying that "ninjutsu originated in China", though. Even if you are taking the idea of Sun Tzu's Art of War as being the foundation, that's not really the same thing either.

My signature wins MMA is just a sport meant for entertainment.

Your signature is a flawed misunderstanding of a wider quote and a deeper context. And no, MMA is not meant "just for entertainment".

African kung fu is weak

Do you really need me to point out what is wrong with this?

Dirty Dog I actually have these things called books. Weird huh? Try reading Hatsumi's 'way of the ninja' or 'unarmed fighting techniques of the samurai' my sources are all there. Also I have this thing called A REAL TEACHER who I study martial arts under. My Sensei is 5th Dan in the bujinkan and would gladly support my statements besides that racist one

Look, I'm going to be blunt. Hatsumi is the head of the Bujinkan, but that doesn't mean that what he puts out there is accurate, or correct. I know the books very well (hell, they're sitting next to me as I type this), but they don't actually support your comments. And, I'd suggest, neither would your instructor (if he does, get a different one). That's not uncommon, though, so don't feel too put out by it. I have a student who has posted here, giving his take on things that I've taught.... and misunderstanding them fairly completely. As a response, I would jump on his comments, and correct them (again).... but it shows that you might be fairly mistaken about what you think your instructor is telling you. At your level of experience, you just don't have the depth of resource (experience) to understand what you're being told yet.

If I'm a troll then you are all troll meat Nam Nam Nam Nam Nam IMA eat u

Way to get way off subject you guys and gang up on the Ninja...typical (spits in disgust)

Miles, they don't care that you study ninjutsu (you're not a ninja, by the way). They care about how you've conducted yourself. This post didn't help.

Sorry. All this started over my signature. I'm not wrong tho. I apologize sincerely if I offended anyone not my intention. Forgive me (bows face down)

No it didn't. Yes, you are wrong. If you can take that on board, then there's no problem.

Think about it...when you say "I'm fighting in the style of Mixed Martial Arts" doesn't make sense to me. You should have a primary art as your style in my opinion.

And why isn't MMA a primary art these days? You have MMA gyms, teaching MMA as a distinct class, which makes it a distinct and separate style. There are things allowed in MMA that just don't work in the contexts of the source systems, so a new art is required to bring it together as a coherent whole.

There's a reason why it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense because Mixed Martial Arts is more of a genre than a style. I am simply saying in order to be effective blending MA you need a primary art to add other arts on top of that

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is that you don't understand what makes something a distinct style, Miles. Adding arts on top of each other is a recipe for poor skills.

because you are basically just street fighting without any formal training. Sure an MMA instructor can teach you moves that work in the octagon but then you are just learning the art for sport and not for survival outside the octagon. This is just my opinion. My opinion is NOT fact.

And, again, why does that make it not a martial art itself? Every art is designed with a single context (usage) in mind (although most can be pressed into usage in other contexts/environments), why is a sporting, or octagon one less than another? How do you view wrestling, then? It's designed for sporting contests, and it's not therefore "street fighting", is it? How about Kendo? Very much sporting, but nothing to do with street fighting...

My point is that your opinion is, as you say, not fact... but it's also not well informed.

I guarantee you if were talking hypothetical...Any MMA fighter would get destroyed if they went into the ring with Ninjutsu Grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei!

No, they wouldn't. And, before you argue, Hatsumi would probably say the same thing himself. He's under no illusions about being undefeatable.

Check and mate Dog. You got me...almost forgot Ninjutsu's foundation is based on the 9 different schools of Budo Grandmaster Hatsumi inherited. Ahhh a fun little debate none the less.

No, ninjutsu's foundation is not the 9 Ryu that Hatsumi heads... but Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is (as well as other things, including, and here is the part you might not like, Hatsumi's lack of care or understanding about a large amount of comabative realities, in favour of creative applications... so nothing to do with being effective in "life or death" combat). It is not an MMA in any way whatsoever.

Doubt it.

Hatsumi has gone on record a number of times saying how easily even he could be beaten... whether a lucky shot, a gun, or just someone getting the jump on him. So, in the hypothetical, Cyriacus would have a fairly good chance....

Hatsumi has mystic powers I would not mess with him or even joke

No, he doesn't. You really need to get over the propaganda, it just makes you look naive and gullible.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hatsumi has mystic powers I would not mess with him or even joke

The sad thing is that I have a feeling you actually believe this.

 

[Kalamazoo Ninja]

I'm 23 and still live w my mom

 

[Chris Parker]

So? It doesn't stop you from listening to what you're being told by people who know a lot more than you do.

 

[Kframe]

Chris parker, I don't want to quoute your entire post, so please forgive me. You mentioned that a Bujinkan Budo Tai Jitsu pratictioner would be in trouble in the Octagon. May I ask Why? I have been watching some videos of BBT and it seams like a solid martial art, with strikes, and throws and joint locks and chokes. I was impressed with a number of things I saw in the videos, breakfalling techniques, and weapon techniques looked good to me. Such as the various knife defenses. Taking the weapons out of the question, what aspects of the striking and grappling of the martial art leave something to be desired in the octagon? I know that mma gyms focus a lot on conditioning,( my mma gym's have helped me lose a lot of weight) could conditioning be what your referring to?

 

[Chris Parker]

You're looking at the wrong things... Realistically, a throw is a throw, a strike is a strike etc, but the application of such (the context, including the cultural surroundings) are where the real differences lie. And the tactical approach for the arts found in the Bujinkan are, in some cases, diametrically opposed to those that have a place in the octagon.