Martial Arts Aren't Magic

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Anarax, Dec 8, 2017.

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  1. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    Over the years I have witnessed an interesting concept both the trained and untrained believe. The concept is based around the idea that showing up for practice is the only thing required to improve martial prowess. This isn't directed to the differently abled, but more towards those that don't wish to put the work in for various reasons.

    Simply knowing techniques is one thing, puling them off in combat is entirely different. Knowing stances, punches, kicks, etc, doesn't make you a martial artist. Attending class after class and drilling the same things with intent is what makes you a martial artist. Practicing techniques until they're embedded into your muscles is what I think some forget. "You fight how you train" is a quote that helps with this misconception. Flailing your arms, sitting in a high horse stance, only doing that which is comfortable is one thing that is hurting martial arts in general today.

    The most common group I've witnessed this with is children. Some parents believe enrolling their kids into a martial arts class is all they need to do for their child/children to learn to defend themselves. I can understand this misconception, especially considering a lot of parents who enroll their kids are untrained themselves. Though some people like to downplay younger students not taking their training seriously, in the end who is it really hurting? Parents, do you take an active role in your child's academics? Then why not with their martial arts training? This doesn't mean you must enroll in the same class as them. It means speak to the instructor, ask them what your child needs to work on, encourage your child to improve.

    Some adults share this mindset as well. I've seen this mindset in both new and mid-ranked students. One of my instructors has said "you're only cheating yourself", when he sees people putting in minimal effort into their training. Complacency plays a big role in this as well. especially with those with a rank mentality. Those who are more concerned about memorizing new techniques than drilling the ones they already know miss the big picture sometimes.

    In summary, as martial artists we shouldn't treat training as such a routine and mundane task.
     
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  2. Paul_D

    Paul_D Master Black Belt

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    So was Kaue Mena a martial artist? Although he was an undefeated MMA fighter, the one time he had to fight for real he couldn't pull of any of the techniques he knew.
     
  3. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    There's some truth to that, but it's an oversimplified point.

    The trouble is that the why's and wherefore's of a person's effort and commitment are so broad and individual that what is rightbfor one may not be for all.
     
  4. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    i think the problem lies not in others, but in your own narrow presupposition.
    define for me please ....martial prowess?
    now to save some time i will make the assumption that you mean the ability to use learned martial skills in a self defense situation.
    now can you answer how many parents of said students actually really want their child to be fighting, going around punching and kicking the snot out of other kids?
    there are two issues to consider here #1...the reality is that under the age of 15 or 16 children are not really learning applicable fighting skill. also there is the level of maturity to grasp the concept of violence.
    #2 parents do not generally send their kids to learn to fight but do send their kids in hopes of fostering self esteem and confidence that in turn will have the effect of the child not submitting to bulling and to be able to assert themselves in the world.

    as far as adults training, your same presupposition is faulty. 99 % of adults do not really want to learn to defend themselves. they just want a fun activity.
     
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  5. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Different people want different things. Global truth, right?

    Specifically applied here, Different people in different types of MA training want different (sometimes from day-to-day, year-to-year) outcomes from that training, either for themselves or as you are illustrating, from their children.

    What's wrong with mom putting her ankle-biters into a kids program then taking a blessed break from them so she can recharge to be super-Mom at the end of the day? Nothing... unless super-Mom actually has an expectation that Junior is going to be a MMA Champ in the next 4 years, and then she should re-evaluate. But... super-Mom does not want that outcome in the vast majority of instances, so the expectation does not apply.

    For the hard core MA folks, yes... we stay late, work out alone, think abou it, visualize it, etc. But, that's probably 1% of the total.
     
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  6. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    If a parent puts their kid in martial arts, their kid is better off than if they had not been put in. Martial arts should teach more than self defense: discipline and respect are high up there as well.
     
  7. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    I've seen the video you're referring to, but your'e not describing what happened in the video. He threw techniques but he was fighting multiple opponents, one armed with a 2x4. Even the well trained can be defeated in the right situation.
     
  8. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    It's not oversimplified. The point is some put so little effort into it and still expect amazing results. It is a simple concept of "you fight how you train" and "you get back what you put in", but it's not oversimplified. Even if your goal is fitness in martial arts, you should still be putting effort in.
     
  9. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    Prowess "skill or expertise in a particular activity or field"

    Training with intent and teaching students to be overly aggressive aren't the same thing.

    First, that's not what I've witnessed. I've seen focused and disciplined 12 year old that take training more seriously than a lot of adults. Again, it's not about violence, it's about training with intent. Regardless of age you must train the body at a certain level to achieve results.

    I agree that there is a psychological component at work when children take martial arts. However; parents also enroll their kids to gain a certain level of self defense. I don't think it is solely one or the other.

    What are you basing this on? 99%? Though I agree many people take it for more recreational reasons, why does that exclude intent though? If you're playing a pick up basketball game do you not still perform your best. That doesn't include violence or fowling other players, just doing your best.
     
  10. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    I'm not referring to a world champ, just training with intent. In your example, the mom should at least recognize the opportunity from enrolling her kids in that class. She shouldn't expect her child to be the next world champion, but to understand the value of what they could learn and encourage them to do so.
     
  11. Paul_D

    Paul_D Master Black Belt

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    You're missing the point. The well trained are easily defeated when they are trained for a totally different sort of combat. He was trained for a consensual fight/sporting contest not self defence/non consensual criminal violence. He never trained to deal with multiple opponents or weapons because they are not something he needed to train for in the ring.

    So by you're definition he was a well trained Martial Artist, however that does not mean he has any skill self defence. Consensual/sport fighting and self defence are two very different things, and skill at one does not automatically translate into skill at the other, and vice versa.

    So the question remains, do you think he was a martial artist? Clearly he was skilled in the ring as he was undefeated, but he did not train for combat outside the ring, did not understand combat outside the ring, and did not have the skills to deal with combat outside the ring.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  12. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Thing is some people simply don't care if they're good or not, some people just do it for a workout or a social thing or just to get out the house. It's an activity to them. Not everyone wants to dedicate their life to it and that's absoloutely fine. It's like a football player who plays on a Friday night he probably doesn't spend time practicing football away from that Friday night.

    There's simply no right or wrong way to do martial arts
     
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  13. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    There are plenty of ways. If you do so with arrogance, malice, disrespect...
     
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  14. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    You do fight how you train. You deal with many situations how you train, if you train for them, either physically, mentally, or both. That has been proven many times over. That is why the military does a lot of training. And some businesses do a lot of training.

    That explains why Paul_D is correct in his post.
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    The thread title is spot on, Martial Arts aren't magic.

    Magic has much cooler hats.
     
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  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure the facts support your point, he was out numbered 7 to one and they had big sticks, it seem the only training that would have saved him a beating was sprinting.

    my old man gave me little in the way of good advice, one of the few gems, was don't fight more than one at once, get them one a time when you have Your mates with you, that way you tend to win
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    ??? You don't think that under 15s understand the concept of violence, or ever get in fights and need violence?
     
  18. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    People look for the easy way out. Ever wonder why some people are attracted to no-touch knockouts or light touch knockouts?

    As far as people in classes goes... there’s some who just go through the motions, and some who push themselves. You get out of it what you put into it. The ones who just go through the motions have no bearing on my training. And just going through the motions when they’re sparring with me won’t last long at all. Or they’re so much better than I am and they’re bored while I’m trying to keep up.

    But the going through the motions people can suck the life out of class if the teacher feeds into them. A good teacher will either creatively motivate them, or basically intentionally turn a blind eye to them.
     
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  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    but that's more their personality than anything else, some people coast through life, going though the motions, job, marriage kids hobbies, , everything, it seems unlikely that ma will change that much
     
  20. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    i understand your "that guy"...the one who sees the world through their own eyes and refuses to try to understand the underlying point that someone is trying to make...so be it....

    What do children know of their own mortality?

    "In a recent review of studies on children’s understanding of death, medics Alan Bates and Julia Kearney describe how:"

    "Partial understanding of universality, irreversibility, and nonfunctionality usually develops between the ages of 5 and 7 years, but a more complete understanding of death concepts, including causality, is not generally seen until around age 10. Prior to understanding nonfunctionality, children may have concrete questions such as how a dead person is going to breathe underground. Less frequently studied is the concept of personal mortality, which most children have some under standing of by age 6 with more complete understanding around age 8–11."

    now that is for the concept of death and mortality but they also have to have an understanding that bad things can happen to them. often children think that death is only something that happens to old people or adults. on top of that we are not just talking about mortality we are talking about violence. while some children do experience violence, most do not. it is that experience that allows them to grasp the concept. i am not talking about fist fights in school where the worst that happens is someone cries and runs away humiliated. if the child's experience is limited to school fights then they will not comprehend the concept of the level of violence an adult can do to another. the ability to comprehend is dependent on experience. this is not limited to children. adults are prone to this as well. many adults who can logically understand violence can have an insulated view. thinking that things like that can not happen to them, or perhaps ignoring the possibility for psychological comfort.
    while a child may understand violence from one perspective, correlating their own martial arts and the connection to violence is again another step. its a step many adults cant make. violence is often nothing more than a vague concept that has a slight possibility of happening somewhere way off in the future,, but probably not ..in their view. this insulated view makes martial training less about self protection and more a social activity.

    and to clarify my earlier post...i said their training does not reflect self defense ability until around 15.
    #1...the reality is that under the age of 15 or 16 children are not really learning applicable fighting skill.
    please notice the . period after the word skill
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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