Martial art A vs. Martial Art B... here we go again...and again... and again...

[ralphmcpherson]

Could it just be a reigonal thing? From reading and learning on martial talk it seems that in the USA there is a big problem within tkd, and thats fair enough. I dont know if that problem exists to the same degree outside the states. I know here in australia, we have a much larger problem with karate belt factories. I have several tkd clubs in my area and I would say 80% of them teach old fashioned, self defence related tkd. At the club I train at we have several police officers who train in tkd to aid in their proffession. We train to kick low, punch heaps and generally knock your opponent out as quick as possible. We have had several guys go and fight in mma comps and do quite well. This could be because most of the GM's out here came here in the 60's and 70's and have not altered their curriculum since and thus we havent "moved with the times" so to speak. The same can be said for many other countries, I have a mate who fought some tkd fighters from turkey (for instance) and said they were just brutal. I know another guy who is a 2nd dan from england and he is not someone I would like to mess with either. So I can understand where you are coming from because you live in a country where obviously tkd has been watered down, but I dont think the art as a whole should cop a bad rap because one country has over commercialised it. Im not saying other countries dont have the same problem, but I think it is to a far lesser degree than what you are witnessing in the states. Basically, I can assure you tkd works and works very well and there are still plenty of places who teach it properly.

 

[Steve]

The guy is barely 20, has trained in 'proper' TKD, the stuff you KO people with, I know, I trained at same place, got the belt just a couple of years ago. He uses it to great effect in the cage. As a lot of people know I really don't like the Olympic TKD, the reason I don't like it is that I find it a travesty of what TKD actually is. I know people will disagree with what I've said but there remains the fact that TKD taught properly is a damn good thing. Perhaps though TKD here like MMA isn't in the same place as TKD in the States. We are smaller, less wealthy and have fewer people involved in martial arts altogether. I'm not saying we are better just that we have less money invested in martial arts so have small classes and schools.

Could it just be a reigonal thing? From reading and learning on martial talk it seems that in the USA there is a big problem within tkd, and thats fair enough. I dont know if that problem exists to the same degree outside the states. I know here in australia, we have a much larger problem with karate belt factories. I have several tkd clubs in my area and I would say 80% of them teach old fashioned, self defence related tkd. At the club I train at we have several police officers who train in tkd to aid in their proffession. We train to kick low, punch heaps and generally knock your opponent out as quick as possible. We have had several guys go and fight in mma comps and do quite well. This could be because most of the GM's out here came here in the 60's and 70's and have not altered their curriculum since and thus we havent "moved with the times" so to speak. The same can be said for many other countries, I have a mate who fought some tkd fighters from turkey (for instance) and said they were just brutal. I know another guy who is a 2nd dan from england and he is not someone I would like to mess with either. So I can understand where you are coming from because you live in a country where obviously tkd has been watered down, but I dont think the art as a whole should cop a bad rap because one country has over commercialised it. Im not saying other countries dont have the same problem, but I think it is to a far lesser degree than what you are witnessing in the states. Basically, I can assure you tkd works and works very well and there are still plenty of places who teach it properly.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try just one more time. I've said several times now that TKD is only an example. An example. You're missing the forest for the trees. Honestly, I really don't care what you'lre opinions are about TKD. I've said several times that I don't honestly care about TKD at all. I'm simply sharing what I've heard a thousand times by people who teach and train in TKD on these boards and others I read. Go to MAP, where more Brits post and it's the same stuff. I have no stake in TKD. It could do well or disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't miss it. It's an example of a style where mcdojoism, belt factories, and more relevant to this thread, people who can't actually defend themselves are common.

I must have said this at least 5 times in this thread now, but it could be any style. There is a point where the problem is systemic, where it becomes the rule. Are you guys just yanking my chain? Ralph, pretend I said karate and apply it to your locale. The point remains the same, it's not the artist; it's the art. I understand that this is a common phrase bandied about by martial artists, but someone said it in this thread as though it's self evident. I think that's crap.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm going to take a deep breath and try just one more time. I've said several times now that TKD is only an example. An example. You're missing the forest for the trees. Honestly, I really don't care what you'lre opinions are about TKD. I've said several times that I don't honestly care about TKD at all. I'm simply sharing what I've heard a thousand times by people who teach and train in TKD on these boards and others I read. Go to MAP, where more Brits post and it's the same stuff. I have no stake in TKD. It could do well or disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't miss it. It's an example of a style where mcdojoism, belt factories, and more relevant to this thread, people who can't actually defend themselves are common.

I must have said this at least 5 times in this thread now, but it could be any style. There is a point where the problem is systemic, where it becomes the rule. Are you guys just yanking my chain? Ralph, pretend I said karate and apply it to your locale. The point remains the same, it's not the artist; it's the art. I understand that this is a common phrase bandied about by martial artists, but someone said it in this thread as though it's self evident. I think that's crap.

Fair enough, I understand where you are coming from. You should have said "all martial arts are being watered down by mcdojoism" because by your definition I struggle to think of one that isnt. Karate is full of mcdojos, kung fu is full of mcdojos, tkd is full of mcdojos and as much as you probably dont want to hear it, bjj mcdojos are sprouting up like mushrooms, give it time and they will be everywhere (remember there were no tkd mcdojos in the 50's, but once it became popular...). A GOOD school in ANY martial art is getting harder to find.

 

[Tez3]

Fair enough, I understand where you are coming from. You should have said "all martial arts are being watered down by mcdojoism" because by your definition I struggle to think of one that isnt. Karate is full of mcdojos, kung fu is full of mcdojos, tkd is full of mcdojos and as much as you probably dont want to hear it, bjj mcdojos are sprouting up like mushrooms, give it time and they will be everywhere (remember there were no tkd mcdojos in the 50's, but once it became popular...). A GOOD school in ANY martial art is getting harder to find.

Good post and since MMA stated getting bigger we have had a problem with BJJ McDojos here, any Brazilian over here with a little knowledge of BJJ seems to have cashed in it now, where we used to have very few black belts and they took years to earn we are seeing more and more BB being awarded after a couple of years now. Thse BB of course are then openng their own places to make money.
People see a cash flow not students, they see a business not a martial arts heritage, there's nothing wrong in earning money from martial arts as long as there's value for money.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Good post and since MMA stated getting bigger we have had a problem with BJJ McDojos here, any Brazilian over here with a little knowledge of BJJ seems to have cashed in it now, where we used to have very few black belts and they took years to earn we are seeing more and more BB being awarded after a couple of years now. Thse BB of course are then openng their own places to make money.
People see a cash flow not students, they see a business not a martial arts heritage, there's nothing wrong in earning money from martial arts as long as there's value for money.

I totally agree. Eventually the arts that are gaining popularity now will be tomorrow's mcdojos and then you will hear people saying "bjj is ineffective, and people who do it cant even defend themselves". Ive learnt (particularly through being a tkdist) that the art isnt broke, the art is as effective as it ever was, there are just schools out there where making money is the number one focus. And that is why I believe its the artist not the art, if the artist does their research and joins a reputable club then they WILL become a good martial artist in whichever art they choose. The problem forums can have is that people generally post to complain about what is wrong with an art, people who are happy with where they train dont have any reason to post about it. Im sure if you started a poll on the tkd forum asking "are you training at a reputable tkd club or a mcdojo?", more than 90% would say their club is reputable. Most people who train at mcdojos give it away after a couple of years (if that) and never become 'martial artists' anyway.

 

[Tez3]

It's the 'silent majority' thing, most of us who do post on forums are probably more 'vocal' than many lol. There's an MMA site in the UK that is used by a few fighters but mostly by fans so reading that you would get a skewed opinion of MMA in the UK. A lot of it is moaning ie 'why didn't fighter A hit fighter B on such and such fight' and 'why are company A's t shirts more expensive than anyone elses' etc etc along with a whole load of quite weird stuff and not a little porn. (no I'm not posting the link lol) The people with a beef always find somewhere to have a moan, the others just get on with what they are doing, I imagine it goes for a great many sports and activities not just martial arts.
A lot of the complaints I've seen here about TKD are actually about organisers and organisations not the style so much but people who like to empire build and as I've said before they are common everywhere. The only style if you can call it that that actually cause arguments is the Olympic TKD and while thats a matter of taste I doubt it's bad Olympic TKD.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It's the 'silent majority' thing, most of us who do post on forums are probably more 'vocal' than many lol. There's an MMA site in the UK that is used by a few fighters but mostly by fans so reading that you would get a skewed opinion of MMA in the UK. A lot of it is moaning ie 'why didn't fighter A hit fighter B on such and such fight' and 'why are company A's t shirts more expensive than anyone elses' etc etc along with a whole load of quite weird stuff and not a little porn. (no I'm not posting the link lol) The people with a beef always find somewhere to have a moan, the others just get on with what they are doing, I imagine it goes for a great many sports and activities not just martial arts.
A lot of the complaints I've seen here about TKD are actually about organisers and organisations not the style so much but people who like to empire build and as I've said before they are common everywhere. The only style if you can call it that that actually cause arguments is the Olympic TKD and while thats a matter of taste I doubt it's bad Olympic TKD.

I liken the olympic tkd style to the way cricket is set up. There are test match cricketers, one day cricketers and 20/20 cricketers. They all play cricket but different formats of the same game. Likewise in tkd there are sports practitioners and traditional practitioners and like cricket most people get a taste of the game early on and then choose which 'format' suits what thy are looking for. As with cricket there are the purists who love their test cricket and then there are the people who love the shorter version of the game. Cricket caters for all tastes within the game. So does TKD. Sorry about all the cricket analogies.

 

[Tez3]

I liken the olympic tkd style to the way cricket is set up. There are test match cricketers, one day cricketers and 20/20 cricketers. They all play cricket but different formats of the same game. Likewise in tkd there are sports practitioners and traditional practitioners and like cricket most people get a taste of the game early on and then choose which 'format' suits what thy are looking for. As with cricket there are the purists who love their test cricket and then there are the people who love the shorter version of the game. Cricket caters for all tastes within the game. So does TKD. Sorry about all the cricket analogies.

You must know my other half lol. He'll watch all cricket! Even that rather weird stuff that comes from Hong Kong where the crowd get money if they catch the ball! I like the Aussie commentators on that though.

 

[MJS]

As I have said before: it ain't the martial art, it's the martial artist.

That is very true and I agree but many don't appear to

I too, agree with this. IMO, its a trickle down effect. You get a bunch of low-quality people teaching garbage, and that garbage will be passed on, and on and on. For example...lets take the Bujinkan, and art that is HIGHLY critized. Dont believe me? I can go to youtube, search bujinkan, post a bunch of vids, and you'll see all the negative comments.

Now, before anyone takes what I'm saying the wrong way, let me clarify...I used the BJK as an example only. I personally have no issues with it. I've seen (thanks to facebook) some great BJK clips, by some top quality teachers. The problem is what we see on YT is, IMO, very often poor quality, thus the negativity, thus the impression that the art as a whole, sucks.

I've seen the same thing with Kenpo. We see it with TKD.

That being said, I stand by what I and some others have said...IMO, its the person, not the art. The art suffers because of the person/people doing it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you take a group of 6 year olds and teach them that 2 +1 = 4, is it the student or the teacher who is at fault? If everyone in your school district does it, is it the student or the school district at fault? If the majority of the schools in the world do it, at what point does the entire education system become accountable?

Conversely, every school district I'm aware of world wide teaches that 2+2=4, and there isn't anyone over 6 who believes otherwise. Again, with such an overwhelming success rate, the students can hardly take credit.

Because so many styles have internalized teaching methods as well as techniques, it's hardly surprising that entire styles, such as TKD, are having difficulty. And once again, I"m only using TKD as an example because there is such a large body of information here on this board, along with TKD guys. TwinFist, Terry and other TKD instructors are very vocal about their problems with the current state of TKD.

In the JKD vs MMA thread, Tez mentioned a guy who has a black belt in TKD. Your post leads me to wonder how long it's been since he trained in TKD, and how useful that's been to him since.

I'm not saying TKD is not broken (or for that matter mostly dead), I am saying the style if trained properly, and it rarely is, is effective. And why is it not trained properly? Due to people who either did not learn it properly and then went off to teach or more likely those that were not qualified to teach jumping on the TKD bandwagon to open schools and make money. And if you target children it is likely the parents have no clue as to whether or not this works. In my daughters class I do believe of all the multitude of parents there I am the only MAist he has and he was not happy I trained TKD before when he found out who I trained with. But to the point target children in this way and eventually you end up with something that is not effective, not truly TKD and only using the TKD label for monetary purposes. I see, much the same in Taijiquan. I train with the MA still intact but there are very few out there that know the art like my sifu. And I agree with Chen Xiaowang (who also is very good at MA) that Taijiquan as a martial art is virtually dead due to the fact that there are so many out there that know nothing of the MA of it as compared to the few that do.

I feel TKD is gone the same route, there are still a few out there that know it, my teacher is still teaching and if he is still teaching like he taught me then his students are still capable martial artists.

So I am still at it is the artist not the art since, IMO, most of what is out there today is not real TKD, it is only TKD in name only and that is being propagated by less than stellar artists or sadly, by those that got taken hook, line and sinker.

However there are still a few TKD MA Schools out there and if anyone from the TKD in name only schools whishes to take off the blinders and look around they too can go train better MA.

 

[rlp271]

I think the point that was being made is that when the art suffers because of the people for too long, the art does become the problem. The people are the root, but when they corrupt a martial art long enough, the martial art can become the problem. It happens when very few people know better. It comes down to lineage problems. This has nothing to do with distance from the original source mind you, and everything to do with who is in the chain. I have done Isshinryu Karate for a long time. It's a young martial art, and there shouldn't be a ton of separation from the founder.

Let's say my teacher is 3 people removed from Tatsuo Shimabuku. His teacher's teacher trained with Harold Long, who was one of Shimabuku's direct students. My teacher's teacher was a big point sparring competition guy, so he taught his students with stop point (tag) competitions in mind, no self defense at all. That means my teacher is going to teach the same way, and if I become an instructor, so will I. You go far enough and the market is saturated with that product. That's when the martial art IS the problem. It has become the problem because of the people who do it, but it is the problem nonetheless. It could be any martial art. If you go back to the root of the martial art, you can find the good stuff, the practical stuff, the valuable stuff, but what if there is no place to find that? What then? Is it still the people? Most people can't teach themselves that stuff. They need someone. Those someones are getting to be fewer and fewer in a lot of martial arts. I think we're all basically saying the same thing from different viewpoints.

The only martial art that is so heavily regulated that it doesn't seem to have these problems in the US is Judo. To get anywhere in Judo, you need to compete. To compete you have to belong to one of the big three. There's no way you can get on a mat in a Judo shiai without belonging to one of the big three. Judo in the United States is pretty much ruled with an iron fist, and because of the nature of testing in Judo, there's no way around it. You can't BS your way in Judo and have anyone have a clue who you are.

I've believed for quite a while that Karate needs a similar governing body that sets down good, solid competition rules. Maybe we can get rid of playing games of tag?

 

[Tez3]

My instructor is 'old time' Judo, he says and you can see this yourself that Judo has been watered down for the Olympics, to make it more spectator friendly. A lot of the ground work has been taken out as non Judokas found it 'boring'.
There are outside influences at play, nothing to do with lineages etc. People these days don't want to train for years to get a BB, they are used to instant everything, why learn to cook when you can buy stuff to put in the microwave? Everything is 'fast' these days, instant gratification so martial arts instructors if they want students in through the door have to decide whether they want a few dedicated students who will happily train for years or whether they want loads of students, learning little but all getting the grades and belts they seek. The latter is the problem, how do you fit years of knowledge and practice into a short time to please the customers as that's what they are now, you have to simplify and modify you syllabus ie make it easier.
I doubt it's a new problem however, the need to eat and have a roof over yours and your familiy's heads isn't a new thing so saying 'oh it was better in the old days' is unlikely to be true. At some point most of us will have to sacrifice something we love doing for the need to make a living.

 

[Steve]

Because the way an art is taught is often inherent to the art, it is an institutional issue.

If I went to 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, I'm going to see many of the same things in each and every one of them. Why? Because, by and large, the instructors in these schools are teaching the way they were taught.

Same for TKD schools, Wing Chun schools and all of the rest.

 

[MJS]

Because the way an art is taught is often inherent to the art, it is an institutional issue.

If I went to 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, I'm going to see many of the same things in each and every one of them. Why? Because, by and large, the instructors in these schools are teaching the way they were taught.

Same for TKD schools, Wing Chun schools and all of the rest.

But out of those 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, how many are really going to have sub-par teachers? Would I see a ton of negative comments on BJJ youtube clips? Now, apply that to an art that gets bashed all the time. I find it hard to believe that there are that many arts that suck. Thats why I feel its the person doing the art.

Ex: I could take a Kenpo orange belt and do the same kata as they're doing. When they're performing, they could look like pure garbage, have crappy stances, weak punches, etc., while I look sharp and crisp. Is it the teacher? Is it them? Is it me? Many a time, I've taught someone something, and get frustrated as hell, because they're just not getting it...its just not sinking in. Yet I could show the same thing to someone else, and they pick it up, no problem.

 

[Steve]

But out of those 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, how many are really going to have sub-par teachers? Would I see a ton of negative comments on BJJ youtube clips? Now, apply that to an art that gets bashed all the time. I find it hard to believe that there are that many arts that suck. Thats why I feel its the person doing the art.

I'm not sure what you mean here, MJS. I just don't think I'm tracking you. I'm not basing anything on YouTube. Once again, I picked TKD only because there have been so many threads here about McDojos and whatnot that I thought it would be good to illustrate my point... that within the TKD community there are many people who have self-identified this as an issue. The bujinkan and the wing chun communities have done the same.

I'm not talking about what people outside the art think.

Ex: I could take a Kenpo orange belt and do the same kata as they're doing. When they're performing, they could look like pure garbage, have crappy stances, weak punches, etc., while I look sharp and crisp. Is it the teacher? Is it them? Is it me? Many a time, I've taught someone something, and get frustrated as hell, because they're just not getting it...its just not sinking in. Yet I could show the same thing to someone else, and they pick it up, no problem.

Okay, sure. I can understand this. I'm talking on a much broader scale. If a style has identified core skills and abilities that are being promised to students, but only a very few actually get these skills and abilities, there is a problem. I'm not talking day to day training. And I'm not talking about looking at videos on YouTube.

Once again, if a style purports to teach self-defense, can students actually do so after 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? If not, isn't that a problem? If someone has no physical or mental health issues that preclude exercise, and trains in a style 3 to 4 times each week for some predictable amount of time, will that person ACTUALLY be able to do the things promised in the brochure?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm not saying TKD is not broken (or for that matter mostly dead), I am saying the style if trained properly, and it rarely is, is effective. And why is it not trained properly? Due to people who either did not learn it properly and then went off to teach or more likely those that were not qualified to teach jumping on the TKD bandwagon to open schools and make money. And if you target children it is likely the parents have no clue as to whether or not this works. In my daughters class I do believe of all the multitude of parents there I am the only MAist he has and he was not happy I trained TKD before when he found out who I trained with. But to the point target children in this way and eventually you end up with something that is not effective, not truly TKD and only using the TKD label for monetary purposes. I see, much the same in Taijiquan. I train with the MA still intact but there are very few out there that know the art like my sifu. And I agree with Chen Xiaowang (who also is very good at MA) that Taijiquan as a martial art is virtually dead due to the fact that there are so many out there that know nothing of the MA of it as compared to the few that do.

I feel TKD is gone the same route, there are still a few out there that know it, my teacher is still teaching and if he is still teaching like he taught me then his students are still capable martial artists.

So I am still at it is the artist not the art since, IMO, most of what is out there today is not real TKD, it is only TKD in name only and that is being propagated by less than stellar artists or sadly, by those that got taken hook, line and sinker.

However there are still a few TKD MA Schools out there and if anyone from the TKD in name only schools whishes to take off the blinders and look around they too can go train better MA.

Again, how much of this is based on whats happening/happened in the USA. I have 5 schools within a short drive of my home that teach "real tkd" and only one mcdojo. It would actually be easier around here to find 'real' tkd than a tkd in name club. I can only laugh when I read comments suggesting tkd is 'mostly dead'. My club has 4000 members and teaches 'real tkd' and our club is growing at an alarming rate and we are far from the biggest club I know of. I feel very sorry for tkdists in the USA if thats whats really happening over there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Again, how much of this is based on whats happening/happened in the USA. I have 5 schools within a short drive of my home that teach "real tkd" and only one mcdojo. It would actually be easier around here to find 'real' tkd than a tkd in name club. I can only laugh when I read comments suggesting tkd is 'mostly dead'. My club has 4000 members and teaches 'real tkd' and our club is growing at an alarming rate and we are far from the biggest club I know of. I feel very sorry for tkdists in the USA if thats whats really happening over there.

Well since I do not live outside of the USA I would have to say 100% of it is based on the USA.

I do not doubt things are different elsewhere and I do not doubt what you are saying but does your school and/or the other TKD schools near you teach joint locking, take downs, close in fighting and strikes outside of the point zone?


And lastly I have to be more careful as to what example I use, I REALLY do not want to make this about TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Xue I do not believe it is fear but rather what I call be westrnized to the max. We must always be better and if not we will argue and change thing until we are. Americans for the most part walk around with a chip on thier shoulders because they have no other way to express themself because our society dictates that if we show weakness than we are, if we so remorse than they are stronger. Hell look we change football to American football because we could not keep up. Look in Basketball we are seeing more in more over sea's players being drafted.

No offense intended, and no offense taken, but I strongly (and respectfully) disagree with you regarding the above. A rare thing, to be sure, as I generally find you to be right on the money.

I don't see Americans as walking around with chips on their shoulder. Maybe its a regional difference? I don't know, but self expression does not seem to be a problem and people have and make good use of a variety of ways to express themselves.

Not showing weakness is kind of a universal characteristic and not distinctly American. American culture is really an extension of other cultures, primarily Western Europe, and while we have a great deal of distictness, we also still carry much of the mindset of Western Europe. But as Xue pointed out, this sort of thing is going on in China, and likely goes on everywhere.

Regarding football, American football is termed American to differentiate it from what is called football everywhere else, which we call soccer. One is an entirely different sport from the other, not one being radically changed into the other. I don't ever recall hearing the term 'American football' until I took a foreign language class, and the only time that I ever hear it these days is when the subject is being dicussed between a US American and someone from outside of the US.

The NBA teams that look overseas are doing so because they want a greater talent pool.

In the end, we debate and discuss everything to the nth degree because debate and discourse is part of the fabric of our culture. We have the freedom to do so, and so we do. The beauty is that we can do so, sometimes to the point of things being heated, and then shake hands and share a drink.

I think that the constant this art vs. that art that we see in forums is more a symptom of the internet. Magazines want to sell more magazines, so they pick topics with some degree of controversy. Sometimes they create controversy where there is none in order to make the article more attractive.

For most people that I know, MMA vs. TMA is a personal choice based on one's training needs and goals rather than a question of superiority of one over the other.

I believe the old saying goes no art is perfect no human is perfect but we can all train and be perfect for that one moment if need be. So in the end just keep working on being perfect for that single moment when you may need to be.

On the other hand, I completely agree with this.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

To me what it all boils down to is that if people spent more time at serious training they would have less time to spend bashing another art or its Grandmaster, Soke, Founder, etc..etc..

 

[Xue Sheng]

To me what it all boils down to is that if people spent more time at serious training they would have less time to spend bashing another art or its Grandmaster, Soke, Founder, etc..etc..

Agreed... but of course you realize

You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple