MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

Xue Sheng

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From the The Fox Bagua Zhang Blog

Recently I've seen the topic of MMA vs. traditional martial arts (TMA) in forums, blogs and hundreds of different places on the internet. Generally, the MMA supporters claim that if traditional arts were effective, they would be dominating in the cage fights and that most TMA guys are trapped inside a world of fantasy combat. Adversely, the TMA supporters say that their techniques are too lethal to be used in a sports setting and therefore the people living inside of a combat fantasy are the people who choose cage fighting to express their art.

So instead of trying to convince one side that the other is better, you should understand we are actually all on the same path.

In my personal opinion both sides that would argue superiority need to have a slice or two of humble pie.
 

lklawson

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Good Grief Charley Brown! Where has he been, living under a rock?

I'll leave all the rest of the MMA vs TMS argument for a late 1990's time machine.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

drop bear

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Yeah but it still stresses alive and resisted training.
 

drop bear

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Good Grief Charley Brown! Where has he been, living under a rock?

I'll leave all the rest of the MMA vs TMS argument for a late 1990's time machine.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Should have seen the kickboxing muay Thai debate back in the 80,s
 

K-man

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Yeah but it still stresses alive and resisted training.
True but it doesn't say that it has to be tested in the ring. It actually talks about someone trying to hit you in the face, ie someone other than a compliant partner and no one has ever suggested otherwise.
 

drop bear

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And by the way there is a very good reason why I may loose a knife fight to a knife guy or a kicking match to a tkder.

And it is not the mats,or the ref,or that I am on or off the street.or even that I would have de-escalated the fight or avoided it in some other circumstance.

It is because I do not have the refined skills that those guys have. That is it. Plain and simple.
 

K-man

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I think the whole debate is summed up in one sentence.

So no matter what type of contest we see, we are forced to accept the reality that is given to the contestants. Likewise, basketball players and football players can only be successful in their own environment. The argument that one style is better than the other lends to the ignorance of the speaker.
All styles have their strengths and all styles have their weaknesses. Hopefully, as the article also says, most of us are on the same journey.
 
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Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

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Yeah but it still stresses alive and resisted training.

And by the way there is a very good reason why I may loose a knife fight to a knife guy or a kicking match to a tkder.

And it is not the mats,or the ref,or that I am on or off the street.or even that I would have de-escalated the fight or avoided it in some other circumstance.

It is because I do not have the refined skills that those guys have. That is it. Plain and simple.


Whoa there captain obvious, all you are doing is repeating what he already said in the article, you are just saying it in a more confrontational manor.

No one is attacking MMA or TMA it is an article saying both sides of this argument need to understand it is all martial arts.
 

drop bear

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True but it doesn't say that it has to be tested in the ring. It actually talks about someone trying to hit you in the face, ie someone other than a compliant partner and no one has ever suggested otherwise.

The ring is kind of the definition of a non compliant person trying to hit you in the face.

I mean if you wanted to find the best test of objectives,in this case face hitting, then a ring will supply the best puncher with the most desire to punch you.
 

drop bear

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I think the whole debate is summed up in one sentence.


All styles have their strengths and all styles have their weaknesses. Hopefully, as the article also says, most of us are on the same journey.

The deck just doesn't stack like that. I just don't see how we automatically come to that conclusion.

I could make up drop bear fu tomorrow and as a style it could be inherently good or inherently a disaster.

It is not going to somehow mystically fit in and be this even balance of strengths and weaknesses
 

lklawson

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Should have seen the kickboxing muay Thai debate back in the 80,s
I saw it.

My recollection is that it wasn't as heated and certainly not as long lasting as MMA vs TMA.

But, frankly, I'm shocked that the gent in question is just "recently" seeing the debate, that he somehow thinks he's got a unique perspective on the matter because he's done "both," or that he feels he can whip out a blogpost which settles the matter by saying "well, it's all good and we're all martial artists, right? group hug!" as if that's never occurred to anyone before.

Maybe he was just desperate for content?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

drop bear

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Whoa there captain obvious, all you are doing is repeating what he already said in the article, you are just saying it in a more confrontational manor.

No one is attacking MMA or TMA it is an article saying both sides of this argument need to understand it is all martial arts.

I don't think he is here.

"The MMA fighter should always dominate the cage because it is the natural setting of his training. Yet if you give him a knife and ask him to go against a knife fighter, he will be eaten alive because he is no longer in his element. No style can beat a Taekwondo fighter if they are limited to the rules of Taekwondo and no one can beat a jujitsu fighter when they are limited to the rules of jujitsu."

He is saying there is a rules,setting advantage. I am saying they are fundamentally better. The setting is incidental.
 

K-man

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The ring is kind of the definition of a non compliant person trying to hit you in the face.

I mean if you wanted to find the best test of objectives,in this case face hitting, then a ring will supply the best puncher with the most desire to punch you.
No, in the ring you will find a fighter trained for that environment. It is a different environment to that for which I train. I don't train to fight. I train to not fight. Predominantly I don't train to attack, I train to defend. You are penalised for that in the ring. There are other methods to test your training that are more appropriate than the ring for the training we do.

You said in the earlier post you wouldn't do well against the knife fighter. Well I hope my guys would. They train against random knife attack every training session. I just don't get this us against them situation. You can't measure one against the other.

For example, say I have a fifty year old professional woman come to me to learn self defence. For a start she is going to expect to learn how to defend herself if threatened or attacked. She doesn't want to learn to fight someone in the ring. If she did I would send her to one of my mates who trains people to fight in the ring. Sure we will pressure test her but in a more appropriate way for the training she is receiving.
 

crazydiamond

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I don't understand specifically the debate many "traditional" martial arts practice mixed forms - from striking, kicking, to grappling, weapons and more. Mine has everything. Is this UFC cage fighting MMA vs all others martial arts? Is it in the cage or on the street? What's being compared?
 

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The ring is kind of the definition of a non compliant person trying to hit you in the face.

I mean if you wanted to find the best test of objectives,in this case face hitting, then a ring will supply the best puncher with the most desire to punch you.

Not really, the ring is just one way to go about that.

One thing I liked about Boxing was my weekly training(specifically Sparring) wasn't different than my bouts. Wasn't 100% everyday, but contact was still there.

While in TSD, full speed punches are common for SD, and we use solid contact in free sparring, the structure of the few tourneys we do go to are different.

I can get a non compliant hard to full contact training partner anywhere
 

Steve

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I'm looking forward to reading the article in more detail. But, I read the guy's bio on his blog and laughed when he mentioned teaching English to pay the bills. Get that kid an editor! :)
 

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No, in the ring you will find a fighter trained for that environment. It is a different environment to that for which I train. I don't train to fight. I train to not fight. Predominantly I don't train to attack, I train to defend. You are penalised for that in the ring. There are other methods to test your training that are more appropriate than the ring for the training we do.

Missed the maywether Pac man fight?
 

drop bear

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Not really, the ring is just one way to go about that.

One thing I liked about Boxing was my weekly training(specifically Sparring) wasn't different than my bouts. Wasn't 100% everyday, but contact was still there.

While in TSD, full speed punches are common for SD, and we use solid contact in free sparring, the structure of the few tourneys we do go to are different.

I can get a non compliant hard to full contact training partner anywhere

They will be better strikers than competition guys?
 

drop bear

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You said in the earlier post you wouldn't do well against the knife fighter. Well I hope my guys would. They train against random knife attack every training session. I just don't get this us against them situation. You can't measure one against the other.

You could find out. You don't have to guess.
 

Drose427

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They will be better strikers than competition guys?

Not inherently

No real generalization can be made

Its like the guys that take Boxing for SD and never compete,

They could be better in the ring than the guys at the gym who are competing and have more talent, they're essentially working the same drills, sparring the same way, etc. but the setting and structure differ.

Whether its an official bout or not, its still hard contact and non compliant training,

The method is more important than the environment.

I wasn't entirely disagreeing with your point, but expanding on it.
 

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