What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[drop bear]

There are many traditional martial artists that have military records. Master Rhee was the lead instructor for the Korean 'Demon Hunter' Marines, who have verifiable military experience.

Then you would for example present that as proof if the situation came up. So the documentation of when it was used would be applicable.

I would throw this out if for example someone wanted to make a false allegations that sports systems are not battlefield systems.

And having a look it seems that tkd is separated into traditional and competitive.

Which is not always a line that is made in a martial art.

 

[Hanzou]

I have seen many MMA and Kickboxing fights were the fighting was sloppy and unfocussed.

Probably because brawling and dirty boxing is a big part of MMA and kickboxing. I expect martial arts that contain beautiful forms and acrobatics to be a bit more attractive when it comes to fighting.

 

[Cirdan]

Having practiced both very traditional styles and modern mixed ones I can`t see any real difference. You train to accuire skill. Sparing in traditional karate and mma is the same, "fist meets flesh". The repeated ad naseum silly arguments of "tma is inneffective and for show" and "mma is only monkey-dance sport" are both equally false.

 

[Hanzou]

Having practiced both very traditional styles and modern mixed ones I can`t see any real difference. You train to accuire skill. Sparing in traditional karate and mma is the same, "fist meets flesh". The repeated ad naseum silly arguments of "tma is inneffective and for show" and "mma is only monkey-dance sport" are both equally false.

We've already established the difference. TMAs are loaded with antiquated forms and katas, training with feudal weaponry, minimal sparring, and ancient/secretive techniques that supposedly maim or kill.

Modern MAs don't have these features.

 

[drop bear]

We've already established the difference. TMAs are loaded with antiquated forms and katas, training with feudal weaponry, minimal sparring, and ancient/secretive techniques that supposedly maim or kill.

Modern MAs don't have these features.

There is some grey area in that.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NouSD4OMEac

 

[Hanzou]

There is some grey area in that.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NouSD4OMEac

Machida isnt a martial art. He's a martial artist.

 

[drop bear]

Machida isnt a martial art. He's a martial artist.

Who uses traditional methods to supliment his success in a hybrid competition.

MMA does this a lot.

There are more highly ranked traditional stylists who are elite MMA guys than you would think. People equate MMA to Bruce lee,s philosophy and there is a difference. Bruce did one hybrid. MMA people do a hybrid and grade into legitimate practitioners of the component tma,s that make up their style.

They don't reject the useless.

When you do the bjj component of MMA you put on the GI. Do things the bjj way grade get the belt and have a real grounding in that martial art.

If you do karate you do the kata and the stances.

 

[drop bear]

There are many traditional martial artists that have military records. Master Rhee was the lead instructor for the Korean 'Demon Hunter' Marines, who have verifiable military experience.

Varify it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Varify it.

It's already verified. Verify your own experience.

 

[Cirdan]

We've already established the difference. TMAs are loaded with antiquated forms and katas, training with feudal weaponry, minimal sparring, and ancient/secretive techniques that supposedly maim or kill.

Modern MAs don't have these features.

Maybe you can establish black is white and get killed on your next zebra crossing as well. Like I said, it is all fist meet flesh (or weapon meets flesh since you bring that up). The differences in how to accuire skill are not at all that huge, drills might be different at first sight but principles remain the same. The old "you all suck" does nothing but display insecurity.

 

[drop bear]

It's already verified. Verify your own experience.

I wasn't comparing my experience with master Rhee. I was comparing Paul Cale as an example of varifyable street. And did that only because there is a news article relating directly to street experience there.

All I try to do is.
Make a point. Back that point up with some sort of evidence. And leave the emotion at home.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Oh I didn't see any Slap Fu , what I did see however is a Wing Chun guy deflecting every one of the Muay Thai guys punches and then going straight through his centerline and then running over him until he backed him into a mirror.

What you think are slaps are actually open hand deflections.
But since you brought up the topic of slaps , do not underestimate the power of a slap.

They can knock you out cold just as well as any punch can , they can also be a lot more powerful because the hand and forearm stay relaxed as they don't have to tense up the muscles to form a fist.

I would have to agree in that the Wing Chun guy did exactly what he was trained to do. Advance, deflect, off balance the opponent and attack. In the two instances on that tape one ended with the Muay Thai guy on the ground and being punched and the other with him being forced backward and off balance while being struck and forced into the mirror. The mistake the Muay Thai guy made was in not getting off the line quickly in both instances. I will admit that it did not look pretty but if we have to rate who won the sparring match it was clearly the Wing Chun guy!

 

[Buka]

I would have to agree in that the Wing Chun guy did exactly what he was trained to do. Advance, deflect, off balance the opponent and attack. In the two instances on that tape one ended with the Muay Thai guy on the ground and being punched and the other with him being forced backward and off balance while being struck and forced into the mirror. The mistake the Muay Thai guy made was in not getting off the line quickly in both instances. I will admit that it did not look pretty but if we have to rate who won the sparring match it was clearly the Wing Chun guy!

I agree. And fighting is seldom pretty. Oh, we would love it to be, especially when we're doing it (would be cool, no?) but it seldom works or looks that way. The example I like to use for guys in my gym is the Gonzaga knockout of Crocop -

We could pick apart that roundhouse in all sorts of ways. But it seemed to work pretty well.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I agree. And fighting is seldom pretty. Oh, we would love it to be, especially when we're doing it (would be cool, no?) but it seldom works or looks that way. The example I like to use for guys in my gym is the Gonzaga knockout of Crocop -

We could pick apart that roundhouse in all sorts of ways. But it seemed to work pretty well.

Yes, real fighting is seldom pretty!

 

[Hanzou]

Maybe you can establish black is white and get killed on your next zebra crossing as well. Like I said, it is all fist meet flesh (or weapon meets flesh since you bring that up). The differences in how to accuire skill are not at all that huge, drills might be different at first sight but principles remain the same. The old "you all suck" does nothing but display insecurity.

Except its not. How one is trained also matters quite a bit as well. If your school isn't teaching you sparring or randori, you're not going to build the muscle memory necessary to perform that technique when you need it. You can't punch something effectively unless you've actually punched something. You can't throw someone unless you actually throw someone. Some styles provide that training, many don't.

We simply have too much evidence to believe otherwise.

 

[Cirdan]

Except its not. How one is trained also matters quite a bit as well. If your school isn't teaching you sparring or randori, you're not going to build the muscle memory necessary to perform that technique when you need it. You can't punch something effectively unless you've actually punched something. You can't throw someone unless you actually throw someone. Some styles provide that training, many don't.

We simply have too much evidence to believe otherwise.

Both old and new styles have excellent ways of building muscle memory. It is not like we just recently discovered there is such a thing.

 

[Hanzou]

Both old and new styles have excellent ways of building muscle memory. It is not like we just recently discovered there is such a thing.

False. Refer back to the earlier discussion in this thread about the Karatekas not being able to reverse punch while sparring. Clearly their training did not develop the muscle memory necessary to perform the reverse punch under duress.

 

[Cirdan]

False. Refer back to the earlier discussion in this thread about the Karatekas not being able to reverse punch while sparring. Clearly their training did not develop the muscle memory necessary to perform the reverse punch under duress.

As a student of traditional karate I have no problem using the reverse punch during sparring, nor have I found what I have learned there to be inferior to more modern styles in that regard. That goes the other way too. There is really no reason for the "you suck" since we all pretty much do the same thing, accuire skill trough hard training over time.

 

[Hanzou]

As a student of traditional karate I have no problem using the reverse punch during sparring, nor have I found what I have learned there to be inferior to more modern styles in that regard. That goes the other way too. There is really no reason for the "you suck" since we all pretty much do the same thing, accuire skill trough hard training over time.

Would you happen to have any video of you or your classmates sparring? I would be very interested in seeing it.

If not, your school's name will suffice.

 

[Cirdan]

Would you happen to have any video of you or your classmates sparring? I would be very interested in seeing it.

If not, your school's name will suffice.

Have a look in my profile for some webpages.