Looking for Ninjitsu Training Partners in the NW Indiana Area

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by ronin7411, Dec 8, 2009.

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  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Jon, perhaps you misunderstand things here. I'm not looking to have you make me happy, I'm trying to get an idea of the level of knowledge, experience and understanding you have so I know what level to position my comments with you. I assumed, to begin with, that if you had created your own system (Ryu), that would imply a fair amount of each, however the large amount of odd comments and mistakes in your posts seemed to contradict that. A couple of years of training shows why, as well as where some of your concepts and terms come from.

    Oh, and there was no implication of you being stupid, other than you reading into the post what was not present. If you constantly use terms incorrectly on your website, in your facebook page, and here, that implies that you either got it from a bad source, or your don't understand them. That's not implying stupidity, it's implying ignorance. Responding when asked about such things with "I know, already!" doesn't help, as it goes against everything else you've written before.

    Ignoring me is fine, should you chose. But you are rather off in your take on my intents here, so you know.
     
  2. Kumori Ryu Ninja

    Kumori Ryu Ninja Orange Belt

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    attention to details, I see... no problem...

    Well my .02 on your posts.
    Id quit giving away all your secrets if I were you.. you may give out to much it may anger the Bujinkan... Be careful!!

    Try bothering others now

    Thank you again for your time and efforts!!
     
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Son, I haven't given away a single percent of my secrets here...

    You, on the other hand, seem to like them. This is the third reply I've seen come through on my email notification that doesn't match up when I check the thread. For the record, what came through from you was actually:

    Now, I could ask you to point to where I've called you childish, but frankly I don't see the point. You could, however, try the same tact over at MAP, and you may see that we have actually been rather polite and gentle here. That may give you a different perspective on a number of things.
     
  4. Kumori Ryu Ninja

    Kumori Ryu Ninja Orange Belt

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    With all do respect, Im not your Son.

    You gonna stop??

    Thanks
     
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hmm, I notice that after my last reply you went back and changed your post... again.

    For the record, I'm not Bujinkan. So that change was a little unnecessary. As to bothering others, I've asked a few questions, you are getting increasingly defensive in your attitude and tone. If you really like, I can stop playing nice. After all, I may take offence at you post-editing your posts to insert yourself asking me to "go bother others" before my "continuing", and you then asking "you gonna stop now?" It's a cute trick, but it's been used many times before.

    I am impressed with the way you are bringing this thread towards a lockdown, that would have been nice a while back.
     
  6. Kumori Ryu Ninja

    Kumori Ryu Ninja Orange Belt

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    Im all new to this forum thing... I must confess this is terrible... A horrible managed place where the moderators make rude unnecessary comments to users,, Users that gang up on new guys or different ideas.. Its to bad...You constantly bash every aspect of my art and my training, You are also quite proud of this.. so I will do you a favor Im gonna ignore you so I have no clue past this point what your gonna say..

    Thank you..

    With regards,
     
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Honestly, if this is your take on the way things have happened here, then you are in for a huge shock if you ever visit MAP or, forbid, Bullshido. You will simply be torn apart. And that is something I've actually been looking to avoid here.

    There has been no bashing of your art or your training. There have been particular questions, to which you have decided to take offense, as if the questions were accusations themselves. They weren't.

    However....

    You have, frankly, incredibly little experience in these arts. You are claiming to have founded a Ryu without knowing what a Ryu is. You are misusing terminology. You have a name that doesn't mean what you think it does. We have seen too many "do-it-yourself" people come through here to simply grant a green light to anyone with odd claims and phrasing. So you may want to direct that anger at them.

    In terms of your forum experience, it doens't appear to have been the most positive for you (little secret, it's not completely positive for anyone, no matter who they are... again, head over to MAP, there 10th Dan Bujinkan instructors get ripped apart daily it seems....), and for that I am sorry for you. However, a few things may help, should you decide you can carry on. You take offense at the simplest correction. Stop that. You respond to every question as if it was an accusation. Don't. Take a step back and look at the way you are presenting yourself honestly. Oh, and for the record, I've openly critiqued and corrected my students here as well, if something is wrong, I will point it out. You can choose to take such things on board, grow from it as a person and a practitioner, or you can ignore me and not get anything out of this place (as you'll soon be ignoring Bruno... then Supra.... Ken and Sukerkin.... JKS..... MJS..... everyone of worth, really).

    It's your call, in the end.
     
  8. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Actually, I would like to put some things into context here, in a non-offensive way:

    1) Chris may be a bit verbose and inquisitive at times , but he is honestly trying to figure out what is up with the invented ryuha, and your links with dodgy ninjutsu organizations, and how much training you have to teach.

    2) About the different ideas that are not tolerated: you're right, there are some ideas that we refuse to take seriously. One of the major ones is that there has to be a legit reason to call a system ninjutsu. Without digressing into the technicalities, we can say that western koga ryu is one of the ideas that we'll keep rejecting until we see proof.

    2.1) supporting those groups is putting yourself in a bad light, since if you support them whilst knowing they are lying about what they do, it shows that you don't really care about the art, but more about the name.

    2.2) founding a ryuha while you are still in the very beginner stages of learning the art and without a solid understanding of the art, that is going to raise eyebrows as well. you're basically saying: I am learning something, and as soon as I learn the next thing, I am going to put it under the same name and call it my own style. A ryuha typically is something complete, founded on a couple of core principles, with a solid understanding of the physical expression of those principles. It's not something you make up as you go along.

    3) Most importantly, if you think you are being treated rudely now, you are mistaken. You are simply being asked questions and people don't accept vague or feel-good answers. Had you registered on MAP (martial arts planet) or budoseek or e-budo or bullshido or others, you would have encountered people (not going to name names here) who would not have been as polite as Chris and who would have hounded you off the boards already.

    I am only saying this because it seems you feel you are being given a hard time here, and that is most certainly not the case.
     
  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Folks --

    If you don't like what someone is saying, use the ignore function. If you can't talk nicely to each other -- don't talk to each other. Taking personal shots and sniping at each other is against the rules. If you really don't like it around, go play elsewhere.

    If you aren't getting the message...

    ATTENTION ALL USERS:

    Please keep the conversations polite and respectful.

    jks9199
    Super Moderator
     
  10. Bester

    Bester <font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu

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    If you believe you've been badly treated, report the posts. The staff here is fair, even if they might think you're an idiot (personal experience kiddo). Try MAP, Try Budoseek, try E-budo. Lots of real ninjutsu practitioners on all three. I'd avoid Bullshido. If you think Martial Talk is rough, you'll be crying within 4 posts over there. Seriously. They aren't bound to be polite.
     
  11. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me address a few things:

    1) The staff here are very fair. I've been a member as well as a mod for a long time. This is one of the better run forums out there. Of course, if you're not happy, you're always free to go.

    2) Keep in mind that there're many here, who have a ton of knowledge when it comes to the Japanese arts, the X-Kans, etc. I'm not a member of any Kan, however, I do like the Japanese arts, and usually when I have a question, I'll ask it on the forum, or I'll PM someone, usually Chris Parker.

    3) Keep in mind that you're new here. There have been numerous people here, who've been member of Hayes' group. They've taken some heat, but for the most part, they've gotten along fine with everyone. There've also been guys who've made up an art, and attempt to associate it with a legit Kan. Those folks are usually short lived, mainly because they feel that what they're doing is legit, while others are telling them it isn't.

    I'm not sure what you study or what your background is, but you're more than welcome to post here, and ask questions. Keep in mind that everyone has his/her own opinions, and like them or not, they're free to voice them. If you find a post/member that is violating the rules, report it, using the RTM, which is the little red triangle feature in the right hand corner of each post. It'll be reviewed by staff and if action is necessary, it'll be taken. You're also free to use the ignore feature, found on each members profile, which will disable their posts from your view.

    In closing I'll say this...you're welcome to stay, you're welcome to leave if you wish. I do ask that you, as well as everyone else, adhere to the rules that were agreed upon by everyone when they joined.
     
  12. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I wish you the best in your training!

    However, based on the experience you have provided us you would do better
    to train under a qualified instructor and not teach at this point in your skill
    set development. That may be a hard pill but one that will definitely help
    you acquire the skills you wish. Also to be blunt the world does not need another made up Ninjutsu system. Lord knows there are a ton of them already! ;)
     
  13. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    I have to ask the moderators something this is what the Ninjutsu Thread says right:

    Ninjutsu - General Discussion Surrounded by much controversy, today's "ninjutsu" is derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. We welcome members from all Nin-po schools.

    But yet unless if the practitioner trains in the Bujinkan or one of its off-shoots that they personally belong to according to Martial Talk's standards they are fakes and frauds. Even though they trained with Masaaki Hatsumi at time or another like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, Scott Damron, Jeff Miller, Robert Law, and the list goes on to include members on this thread (Hey Brain didn't you do the same thing that they did and break away from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi to develop Instinctive Response Training ?) and the schools they belong to (Chris, even though you say you're not part of the Bujinkan your school is linked to the Bujinkan and teaches their style of Ninjutsu. So what does that make you as much as you tell people here you are not part of the organization YOU'RE PART OF THE BUJINKAN BECAUSE YOU ARE STUDYING THEIR STYLE!!!!).

    I also noticed that you guys don't enforce your own rules that you try to follow like the fraud busting rule with how you say that you welcome all Ninpo schools including Koga Ryu which everyone has deemed here a fraudulent system. But as soon as they enter you guys go after them and tell them that if it isn't Bujinkan or Togakure Ryu Budo Taijitsu you're a fake and a fraud. Which you can reference this thread as well as other numerous ones too that you guys don't enforce the rules either and let people get away with things like trying to fraud bust people and even you guys admit Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to Ninjutsu is questionable as well. Then at that the same things that you guys knock your organization engages in as well and the links are there to prove it. If you guys want my opinion on this situation and the proof of your actions are there you should really change everything to say unless if you're Bujinkan and under Masaaki Hatsumi's guidance or an instructor that is currently a member of the Bujinkan you shouldn't even bother joining the site.
     
  14. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    MartialTalk makes no Official Statement on what is, and isn't Ninjutsu, other than "derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan." in regards to this section.

    We're not home to fraud busting. We have rules regarding that, as well as an area for serious investigations should they be desired.

    We don't endorse ANYONE.

    If a post violates our rules, please report it, and we will look into the matter. Do not report it if it's simply a matter of you not liking what you're reading, and don't feel the need to go through a thread and point out every single issue. We review the thread, not just the post in question in order to have a more complete picture of what's going on.
     
  15. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Really not quite the same thing at all. I do not teach Budo Taijutsu it is just one of the systems I still train in regularly! I have not broken away from any system that I train in. I am still just a student and practitioner and I always try to train with qualified practitioners in any system that I work out in regularly as well as everyone that I meet. The issue is that Ninjutsu is Japanese and it is silly for a non-Japanese with no connection to Japan to be out founding a system that is Japanese when they know next to nothing about it. Have never been to Japan or speak the language. Then telling other people who have trained in the Kan's that they do not know what they are talking about. This seems to get repeated over and over and over again and again. Really it is sad! There have been many people who have trained under Hatsumi Sensei that have for whatever reason broken away and many believe it or not are still respected. Of course there are others that have done less than scrupulous things and are not respected or not thought very highly of. Personally, I wish everyone the very best in their training. Everyone should find their own path once they have studied very,very hard and dilligently. (not a matter or a few months or even a few years) That path will be different for everyone! ;)
     
  16. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    Oh yeah, check out this article you guys might find something useful since its from Japan and to let you guys know in Japan many instructors claim to be the "last ninja" and in doing are the laughing stocks in Japan. (Does that sound like somebody familiar claiming to be the last real ninja lineage in the world too :uhohh:)

    http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html
     
  17. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    If your art does not have a verifiable (or at least plausible) link to Japan and more specifically to the arts associated with the iga or koga regions, then it is not ninjutsu. And no amount of repeating it here will make us recognize it as such. On this topic, we will most definitely NOT sing kum-bah-ya.
     
  18. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Ok so there is a guy claiming to be from a family which had a line of ninjutsu. Perfectly possible if he was indeed from that region.

    Fujita Seiko. It helps if you have read his biography. It only costs 10$ or so. Fujita Seiko said what he said for 2 reasons, as far as I could judge. First, his grandfather who taught him told him that he had decided to end their line of ninjutsu, but would teach the boy if he would stay out of trouble from then on, AND he told the boy that he would be the last of that line. Second, Fujita Seiko was a very strong believer in the formal rules that demand secrecy of everything within the art. A 'true' ninja would never disclose the art like Takamatsu sensei or Hatsumi sensei did. At least not in his opinion. That is a big part of why he called himself the last ninja. But read the bio if you want to have the details. Btw, he also admitted that his own training was incomplete due to the death of his grandfather before his training was finished.

    Kawakami. On that the opinions are divided. Chris doesn't think he is legit. I am on the fence. There is indeed no proof that we are allowed to see. And the guy does have a serious ego imo. However, at least he is from Japan, and trained by a Japanese person. He has also been looked at by someone who is an expert in traditional arts (but not ninjutsu specifically) who said that what Kawakami does has the look and feel of a traditional transmission. So without any more information, I cannot say for certain either way, but it is not unreasonable to allow for the idea that he is teaching ninjutsu.

    As for why we acknowledge the Takamatsu den arts as authentic, please read this blog post if you have never done so.
    http://blog.bushinbooks.com/archives/4
     
  19. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    With all apologies to Bob here if I mis-represent things, there are a few things that need clarifiction.

    First, a disclaimer. I am not a Moderator (as evidenced by my banner above), so anything I say here is not to be taken as an official stance from this site. However on the topic of what is Ninjutsu, and how it is classified, I may be able to offer something of a more complete opinion.

    You may want to re-read that a little more clearly, then. It states that we classify as Ninjutsu arts that art: derived from the TRADITIONAL fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. What it doesn't say is that we accept anyone who's only claim to this is an ill-appropriated name as a link, with nothing even close to resembling anything like a Japanese system, traditional or otherwise, whose ideas and teachings go completely against every piece of evidence and the history of Japan.

    Simply because the arts passed down from Takamatsu are the only ones that have been shown to have any link historically to the aforementioned criteria. We don't class the others as "fakes and frauds" due to anything other than the claims of being linked with historical systems that they are not. It's the same, really, as someone claiming to have graduated from Harvard when they live in France, and have never even visited the campus. Does in mean that they didn't go to a college? No, but if they claim to be a Harvard graduate, that is fraudulent.

    Steve Hayes is considered legitimate as he trained for many years in a legit system. Although he puts his own spin on things, his background is legit.

    Bob was one of the early students in the art, however he became rather removed from the Takamatsuden systems fairly early on. His approach is rather different, and is based on his TKD as much as anything else. While he is a legitimate martial artist, that is very different from claiming what he presents as legitimate Ninjutsu, which he hasn't done for a very long time.

    Bansenshukai Ninjutsu is based primarily in Bujinkan teachings, so no-one is calling them fakes either. Just not Bujinkan, but that's not the same thing.

    Again, Jeffery is a member of the Bujinkan. His online and home training (although he himself says that that is far from the ideal) may be frowned upon, but he's again not a fake or fraud in any way... not sure where you're pulling this list from.

    Ah, now Robert is the best example you've given here. Like a few others he has some legitimate background, but he basically abandoned that for a fantasy, his site shows many major issues in regard to basic understanding of Japanese martial arts in general, and Ninjutsu in particular. For more evidence that he's rather, uh, out there, check out his bio: http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/

    If you think there is still a claim for legitimacy here, you really need to get out of the comic books.

    As Brian has said, he has in no way split from the Bujinkan. What you are talking about here is that he is honest in that what he teaches is not purely Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Not really sure what your point is.

    Okay, you don't seem to get the difference between the art and the organisation. We are not linked with the Bujinkan, as the Bujinkan is the organisation headed by Hatsumi. We teach the arts that we learnt as part of the Bujinkan, but that's different. And as we can demonstrate a history including the association as put forth in the description, we pass.

    Oh, and don't try yelling at me, son, again I'm still playing nice here. That can change.

    No, we do not say we accept Koga Ryu as it doesn't exist anymore. We say we accept traditional (historical) systems that originated in the Iga and Koga regions, which is rather different. Again, you may want to actually read what you post if you wish to actually contribute to discussion.

    Again, if the art doesn't have the connection to the historical fighting arts of Iga and Koga in Japan, then it doesn't pass. A made-up system that follows no connection or resemblance to anything Japanese whatsoever does not pass. If you can't get past that idea, again, you are not going to have much to say that we can agree on.

    We don't fraudbust here in that we don't actively seek out people and say "hey, look at this guy!". But if someone comes along and says "is this real?", then we will say whether or not they are credible when it comes to Ninjutsu credentials. And if it's a system whose only connection to Ninjutsu is an ill-appropriated name, then we'll say that.

    There are members of the Bujinkan, for instance, who engage in things that the majority of the organisation don't necessarily approve of. But that is mainly due to the Bujinkan's way of leaving things up to the individual instructors themselves. For example, RVDs Home Study Course is not highly thought of, but that in no way invalidates his Bujinkan rank (that and some other things may get some to question it, but that's about it). Infighting in the Bujinkan is not the same as saying that made-up systems are made-up systems with no basis in reality.

    Your opinion? Sorry, what exactly do you think that is worth? Perhaps if you could read the statement at the beginning of this post properly you may realise how out you are here.

    Oh, dear. The Jinichi Kawakami claims have been examined to death. Do you really think you're bringing us anything we haven't already seen? And a tabloid-style article doesn't really cut it when it comes to actual research or anything that can be taken as actual information.
     
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  20. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    Take the Toshinobu Watanabe family for example. Watanabe, 70, is a former chemist for Mitsubishi who recently retired to his ancestral home of Koka in Shiga Prefecture. Koka is one of the two legendary ninja stomping grounds, the other being Iga in nearby Mie Prefecture. Yet, Watanabe had no inkling whatsoever that his family had ninja ties.
    Until he unearthed old documents inside a family warehouse, documents proving his great grandfather was a ninja adviser to one of Japan's top daimyos. Even within the Watanabe family, the ninja line was kept secret.


    Bruno, there was no claims I copy and pasted this from the article it was proven that his ancestors were part of a ninja clan with documents and ironically the Koga. I don't know what your opinion of this is but according to this site http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/ Inoue Motokatsu was left to teach Yui Shin Kai Karate-Jutsu which Fujita Seiko co-founded and named and Iwata Manzo the famous Shito Ryu Karate practitioner also picked up maneuvers from him as well according to their Passing of the Systems tab. So lineage to Fujita Seiko is still out there but under his style of Ninjutsu which is Koga Ryu Wada Ha no he was just a tiny dust particle in the Koga clan. Also lets not forget that there were 53 families in the Koga Ryu and for some reason the general public seems to think that all 53 families of the Koga Ryu's future rested solely with Fujita Seiko. Check out this link as well there are still descendants of the Mochizuki family that are related to the Koga Ryu alive to this day so that kills the myth that all Koga Ryu clans and things related to their history vanished with Fujita Seiko's death. http://mochizuki.org/2009/07/01/koga-ryu-ninjutsu/ I also looked at the article too that you posted and to be fair it says this:

    (More later on whether these claims can be verified.)

    Given Takamatsu-sensei’s unimpeachable status in two very important Ryuha (Kukishin Ryu and Gyokko Ryu), it actually is UNINTUITIVE to think that Hatsumi-sensei would rush off to get the actual artifacts that Takamatsu-sensei gave him verified. Call me a bit old fashioned, but is there really a need to do so? In the opinions of some, “Yes, because otherwise, how would you know that your teacher, this Takamatsu guy, didn’t just make up this stuff?”” Fair enough. I guess there is always a chance that Takamatsu-sensei did make up some of the stuff….

    I’d like to wrap up by answering one final question that has been put to me: “Which of the scrolls are original?”

    My answer: I dunno.

    It is important to remember that not all historical schools necessarily had “official scrolls.” Some arts are transmitted via densho. Other arts are transmitted via oral transmission (a.k.a. Kuden). Applying the litmus test of one to the other is simply inappropriate.
    But any Soke is free to re-write or alter the scrolls however he sees fit, including rearranging the techniques, replacing techniques with other “better” techniques, or removing/adding techniques that the Soke feels better captures the essence of the tradition. The Soke is charged with ensuring that the Ryuha survives, and this may entail adding a hand here or there.
    Also note that as with any human endeavor, the impact of politics clearly played a role in determining why certain Ryuha survived till today and others did not. Many of the Ryuha that have the oldest densho-based transmission, for example Katori Shinto Ryu, received sponsorship by powerful political or religious leaders in historical Japan. Does that make them any “better” than those who did not curry favor with certain leaders? Nope. Just different.


    Does that mean that each and every school was verified by this organization? I dunno.

    So this makes it any better because in my opinion even the author says he can't verify anything neither other than Takamatsu might be telling a partial truth since not everything regarding the claims of his lineage is real or verifiable as well.123
     
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