Looking for Ninjitsu Training Partners in the NW Indiana Area

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by ronin7411, Dec 8, 2009.

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  1. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    Chris read above and personally you've done it to me before in post on here and I didn't get mad at you or make any threats so grow up
     
  2. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Fujita Seiko (again, read his bio) did NOT pass down his Koga ryu Wada-ha lineage. It stopped with him. He was also Soke of 2 or 3 other lineages that he acquired when he was older. These are the ones he passed on to his senior student(s). Not his Koga ryu.

    And I've said it before: I am willing to consider that perhaps there are still hidden Koga lineages in Japan (unlikely but possible). I am not even automatically rejecting the claims of Kawakami. But the idea that westerners with no knowledge of Japan, who've never been to Japan at all (or only briefly), don't speak Japanese, etc would receive a full transmission of these arts is ridiculous. The 'secret master with western successor' theme has been milked too much to be credible.

    The only thing they could say is that they are doing what they think is Koga ryu without having ever been trained in it. And that would make it fake if they try to present it as the real deal.
     
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Johnny, essentially you have provided nothing, you realise. Fujita Seiko did not pass on the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, so that no longer exists (evidenced by his passing his weapons and scrolls to the Iga-Ueno Museum), the two families you mention (the Mochizuki and the Watanabe) both have historical claims that in the past members of their family were associated, yes. But if the art wasn't passed down (it wasn't, that's actually a big part of what they say), then there is no Koga Ninjutsu remaining from them either. When it comes to the Takamatsu claims, again you have nothing, especially nothing that hasn't been discussed before (with you, I might add).

    The idea is not that all 53 families ended up with Fujita, it is that the only possible system that remained ended with him. No other systems have survived. And that's hardly surprising if you actually learn something about the reasons the arts existed, what caused them to flourish, and what caused them to subside (which would also tell you why it's impossible to create a "new" Ninjutsu system).
     
  4. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    This is an important distinction. Hell, I *believe* (there was a name change in our past and I'm not 100% positive this follows the correct branch of our family) I can trace a portion of my family lineage to a Privateer vessel... but that doesn't mean I'm a freaking pirate, and I couldn't sail a boat to save my life... hell I can barely row one in a straight line. I also have a Welder and an Artist in my family, but I can't paint OR weld... because...

    No one ever taught me how.

    Shocking, I know. Seriously.

    As far as the other issue, about how "We welcome members from all Nin-po schools."

    Chris beat me to it, but yeah... If you call it Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Ninpo, or what have you, it doesn't make it so and that doesn't mean it's welcome.

    MT makes no claim or endorses anyone, but I think, with the exception of a handful of the D&D Oriental Adventurers guys who toss tires, pose with 10.00 BudK dragon katanas in one hand and nachos in the other... it's pretty well accepted that an art has to at least seem to have a correct background, and here's what I mean by that.

    If you are a "ninjutsu" school, but all your stances are Identical to Chinese Wing Chung, and your primary weapons skills are Okinawan Sai and Phillipino Escrima, you probably aren't learning Ninpo from the Iga/Koga regions, because believe it or not, it's fairly easy for experts (which as a disclaimer I am not) to look at and say "no, sorry that is not from that region/time period" because in most cases those skills developed to cope with certain situations that arose, i.e. types of armor and weapons being employed. If the fighting style does not match that region/time period, it's probably a good bet that it's probably not what people are claiming it is when they slap the name on it.

    Think about it like this. NO ONE with an IQ over 40 would look at U.S. Army Infantry training, see soldiers low crawling, taking up firing positions, and moving in cover formation and say "Holy Cow, those guys are doing Ancient Samurai Martial Arts" because the tactics and situations they are training to respond to bear NO resemblance to the ones faced by the Samurai in japan.
     
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  5. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Green Belt

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    ronin7411,

    A few questions for you:

    1) Why do you wish to dispute the Takamatsuden arts so much? It seems that a) you have something against them, or b) you wish to show that because there is controversy regarding the Takamatsuden arts, and controversy to whatever it is you wish to study, that it somehow validates (incorrectly) what it is you want to study. Kind of like, "You arts are questioned. My arts are questioned. Why can't I play here, too?"

    2) Why do you wish to believe in the Koga or whatever it is you so seek out? What is more appealing about it than, say, the Takamatsuden arts? What makes you want to see them as more legit than the other?

    3) Why are you do you seek acceptance here? No amount of internet articles you quote, you won't change the minds of some of the people here. What is so important to you you want to hear these guys say, "You know, there is a chance some of the basement-dwelling American Koga ninja guys might be real."?

    Just curious to get more insight onto your side of this argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2011
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  6. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    It appears you did HALF your homework; but not enough.

    Once again you should of took the advice of actually reading Fujita Seiko's biography. Yes Fujita Seiko trained with those men and taught them things. Fujita Seiko was a "martial arts expert"(he was skilled in other martial arts besides Ninjutsu). Fujita Seiko SPECIFICIALLY said he did not pass on his Ninjutsu. He did not find anyone WORTHY in his opinion to pass it to. He also did not think Ninjutsu is necessary anymore.(Which most of it is not...)
    Contrary to your belief... Ninjutsu is not all about fighting and throwing stars. Ninjutsu also had extensive curriculum in fire techniques, water techniques, stealth techniques, meteorology, entering techniques(getting into feudal castles etc). I can see exactly where Fujita Seiko was coming from with that statement. So "Ronin" what exactly do you not understand about Fujita Seiko's statement "NINJUTSU DIES WITH ME?"

    Although I do remember reading that Fujita Seiko might of passed down some shuriken throwing techniques to one of those guys he trained with. I would have to recheck, but being shown some shuriken techniques is not enough for that Karate man to claim to be teaching "Koka Ryu"
    So to the extent of everyone's knowledge(which is pretty much solid), Koka Ryu Ninjutsu has died off. Which is why you have people claiming they are "Reconstructing it" (Although before they claimed they were taught it)


    Everything Takamatsu might have said might not be true. But in the current state... Takamatsu has more evidence supporting his Ninjutsu ryu, and he is Japanaese.
     
  7. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    It is obvious since this behavior is perpetual.
    They come in with their fantasy of Ninjutsu. Someone from Takamatsu-den arts corrects their mislead fantasies. Now since their fantasies are destroyed. They want to get back at them in revenge.
     
  8. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Green Belt

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    Perhaps, and I have seen that before. But I can't think that is always the case. I have never trained with a proclaimed Koga instructor, and I'm more curious as to what is so convincing.

    I wouldn't mind training with a Koga person, if I found it sincere. There is a group not far from where I live, but they seem to re-enact moments from Mortal Kombat (right down to stances and costumes) than to be sincere in any martial arts sense.

    Not that the Takamatsuden arts have achieved a Flawless Victory and performed a Fatality on the Koga myths (sorry, I had to!), but they are more plausible than anything I have seen come out from anyone claiming Koga lineage.
     
  9. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    You guys obviously can't read or have selective reading and try to distort things to make your argument look better. I already covered that Fujita Seiko didn't pass on his style of Ninjutsu to others with this statement in my post.

    So lineage to Fujita Seiko is still out there but under his style of Ninjutsu which is Koga Ryu Wada Ha no he was just a tiny dust particle in the Koga clan.

    You obviously didn't read the article that I got from a Japanese website because these statements says what I've been saying all along.

    The last person with supposedly direct ninja connections, martial arts expert Seiko Fujita, perished in an automobile accident in 1966. Yet, there are those who doubt Fujita's claim. There are those who doubt the claims of all the many martial arts wizards who have — since Fujita's day — touted themselves as "the last ninja."

    Also just like the articles states no one is the real last ninja in Japan its a marketing gimmick and there is countless amounts of proof that Masaaki Hatsumi or Jinchi Kawakami are not the last ninjas on the planet Earth. (Even though the Iga Ueno Museum has this as a FAQ)

    http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html

    Are there heirs to the art of ninjutsu today?
    There are several researchers of ninjutsu history, but as for a ninjutsu heir, Kawakami Jinichi (honorary director of the Iga Ninja Museum) is the 21st Soke of the Koka-ryu Hanto, and is called the last ninja.

    So now onto Muawjhe's question

    1) Why do you wish to dispute the Takamatsuden arts so much? It seems that a) you have something against them, or b) you wish to show that because there is controversy regarding the Takamatsuden arts, and controversy to whatever it is you wish to study, that it somehow validates (incorrectly) what it is you want to study. Kind of like, "You arts are questioned. My arts are questioned. Why can't I play here, too?"

    Actually, I'm good friends with members of the Bujinkan and talk to them on a regular basis and they have no problems with me studying Koga Ryu so no I don't have a problem with the Bujinkan or Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. I also am not trying to prove that the arts that the Bujinkan are studying are fake even though there are people like Anthony Cummins that says they are fake along with numerous others all over the globe. (like Bullshido and is discussed here too http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3788 )

    2) Why do you wish to believe in the Koga or whatever it is you so seek out? What is more appealing about it than, say, the Takamatsuden arts? What makes you want to see them as more legit than the other?

    I'm like you guys when it comes to the lineage and let me quote even some of your statements on this thread

    Tanaka just wrote:

    Everything Takamatsu might have said might not be true.

    Then also the article Bruno provided to us says this as well:

    http://blog.bushinbooks.com/archives/4

    (More later on whether these claims can be verified.)

    Given Takamatsu-sensei’s unimpeachable status in two very important Ryuha (Kukishin Ryu and Gyokko Ryu), it actually is UNINTUITIVE to think that Hatsumi-sensei would rush off to get the actual artifacts that Takamatsu-sensei gave him verified. Call me a bit old fashioned, but is there really a need to do so? In the opinions of some, “Yes, because otherwise, how would you know that your teacher, this Takamatsu guy, didn’t just make up this stuff?”” Fair enough. I guess there is always a chance that Takamatsu-sensei did make up some of the stuff….

    I’d like to wrap up by answering one final question that has been put to me: “Which of the scrolls are original?”

    My answer: I dunno.

    It is important to remember that not all historical schools necessarily had “official scrolls.” Some arts are transmitted via densho. Other arts are transmitted via oral transmission (a.k.a. Kuden). Applying the litmus test of one to the other is simply inappropriate.
    But any Soke is free to re-write or alter the scrolls however he sees fit, including rearranging the techniques, replacing techniques with other “better” techniques, or removing/adding techniques that the Soke feels better captures the essence of the tradition. The Soke is charged with ensuring that the Ryuha survives, and this may entail adding a hand here or there.
    Also note that as with any human endeavor, the impact of politics clearly played a role in determining why certain Ryuha survived till today and others did not. Many of the Ryuha that have the oldest densho-based transmission, for example Katori Shinto Ryu, received sponsorship by powerful political or religious leaders in historical Japan. Does that make them any “better” than those who did not curry favor with certain leaders? Nope. Just different.


    Does that mean that each and every school was verified by this organization? I dunno.

    If the author of this article can't verify everything that Takamatsu has said so what makes you guys more authentic or better than a Koga Ryu practitioner which some of them have prior training in legitimate arts as well. So after some people are calling you fakes and frauds too are you going to stop studying Ninjutsu because of that despite it having holes in its lineage or claims like Takamatsu and Hatsumi's style does too ? No, because I like the style and don't care because even the almighty and superhuman Bujinkan can't verify everything regarding their lineage as well.

    Then as the old saying goes if you don't like it, don't study it, find something else that meets your taste I don't like Kyusho Jitsu or George Dillman because I don't believe touch-less knockouts work but you don't see me picketing and going after every member of their schools. Nor bashing them on the internet every time I get the chance too I still respect them as a martial artist because of their dedication to their training even though a Street Fighter style Haduoken or Goku's Kamekameha will get you killed (along with laughed at) in an actual fight.


    3) Why are you do you seek acceptance here? No amount of internet articles you quote, you won't change the minds of some of the people here. What is so important to you you want to hear these guys say, "You know, there is a chance some of the basement-dwelling American Koga ninja guys might be real."?

    Actually, what I'm saying is that you guys aren't God's gift to the art of Ninjutsu nor is Takamatsu or Hatsumi the Bujinkan has holes in its lineage, the Koga Ryu does as well, so does the Fuma Ryu, so does Jinchi Kawakami, and almost every other Ninjutsu style out there as well. I don't care for your guy's acceptance I was here looking for people to help train with me not a comparison or to hear how much better or legitimate my school of Ninjutsu is compared to another person's school. So in short and just like the title of the thread says unless you stay in the NW Indiana area and want to practice Ninjutsu (despite whatever lineage it is or who created it) hit me up so that I can see what's up. If not and you're only going to add more fuel to the fire that has gotten an ad for training partners to talking about how much better and legitimate my school is compared to other schools of Ninjutsu don't post anything on this thread. Go and find another thread to brag about how much better and more authenticate your school of Ninjutsu is compared to others.
     
  10. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    I am having trouble seeing your argument here.

    Are you trying to say that you're in the same boat as Takamatasu-den arts?

    On one side you have a man who SPECIFICALLY said "Ninjutsu dies with me." While Takamatsu passed his art onto Hatsumi(and others). Why do you even bring up Fujita Seiko if you KNOW he did not pass his art down? Are you trying to make some ignoratio elenchi argument? There aren't any HOLES in modern Koka ryu lineage, since it wasn't continued. You're acting like you have some kind of lineage for Koka Ryu. Jinichi Kawakami has yet to be verified as actual holder of Koka Ryu, he is currently not even training anyone anyways. So how are you getting your Koka-ryu lineage?

    Also another thing, Masaaki Hatsumi does not claim to be last Ninja. I have many Bujinkan friends, and they will laugh if you start talking about someone having Koka Ryu lineage. Not everyone in Bujinkan is a knowledgeable person about Bujinkan or Ninjutsu. My friends seem to be very knowledgeable about it. And usually they tell me that "Bujinkan is not Ninjutsu, it just contains Ninjutsu within its curriculum." None of them claim to be Ninja.
    You keep putting these other "styles" in the same boat as Bujinkan. Acting as if they only have "holes"
    They have more than holes... They don't have a verifiable lineage BACK TO JAPAN.


    Also Fuma Ryu is a dead Ryu.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2011
  11. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    Jinichi Kawakami does have a school going in Japan that is ran by Yasushi Kiyomoto and they have a branch in Spain

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinichi_Kawakami

    http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/

    http://www.danieldimarzio.com/bankeshinobinoden.htm

    http://www.bankeshinobi-spain.com/

    Now I done already know that you guys think its false but there is a Fuma Ryu school going on as well in the UK

    http://www.dojoguide.org/en/martial-art/British-Fuma-Ryu-Ninjutsu-Society.7604/

    http://cjj2004.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/fumaryu-pdf.pdf

    Who cares about who's better or equal you like studying Togakure Ryu right ? Despite all of the negative things associated with it right ? Are you going to stop studying it even though some people will see you as a joke and should consider studying another style because you're only kidding yourself with a false sense of reality ? As long as you are happy with what you are doing who cares what people think of you it hasn't stopped anybody from doing the things they wanted in the past and it isn't going to stop them in the future.
     
  12. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Um... yes?

    I mean, I have been saying that several times already, and now you are saying it like it's a new argument? Train whatever you like if you get out of it what you want. That is not even the topic of the discussion here, not how effective it is at whatever you do (MMA, self defense, etc). The argument is whether what you do is ninjutsu or not. It's a separate argument. And not one where you are going to sway people with 'feel-good' arguments.
     
  13. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Johnny.

    Antony Cummins has absolutely no credentials, understanding, insight, or knowledge in these arts. He looks for things to suit an agenda and refuses to acknowledge anything that doesn't support his concepts. His arguments are incredibly flawed and he cannot actually answer any question that is posed to him (in fact, his latest answer to my message about the problems with his video on Takamatsu and the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu was that my list of his mistakes was "too long to go through"......). He is not someone to look to for support.

    Jinichi Kawakami, well, as Bruno says I'm not convinced. And having the Iga Ueno Museum support you doesn't count for that much, really, as it is primarily a tourist attraction. For the record, though, if you want to go down this path, the former Mayor of Iga Ueno, who helped set up the Museum in the first place, was a supporter of Hatsumi and his claims for Togakure Ryu. His name is Okuse Heischiro, by the way. But really, being supported by the side show attraction of a Museum after they make you an honorary curator seems a little less-than convincing of authenticity to me.

    The Spanish group, headed by Juan Hombre there. Juan is well known for over-publicising and over-stating his involvement in the Ninjutsu systems. He visited Kawakami a few times over a couple of years (for a couple of weeks at a time), and started promoting himself as Kawakami's disciple. Problem is that Kawakami himself stated at the same time that although some Westerners had come and trained with him, he hadn't shown them anything of his traditions, there were no Western students, and certainly no Western teachers or dojos, and the only teacher was his student. There was also no intention to begin any other dojos. So Juan's and Kawakami's stories don't match there, and Juan is well known for such claims before.

    Fuma Ryu degenerated into a bunch of pirates roaming the Sea of Japan in the 1700's, the group using their name these days is headed by Harunaka Hoshino. Find out more about him here: http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&type=&topic_id=2259&forum=16

    The entire art is so far removed from traditional Japanese movements he might as well try to convince me that Tango dancing is a legit Ninjutsu system. If you can't see this, really, that's your lack honestly.

    Again, though, if you're happy with your choice, go for it. But don't kid yourself that it's anything to do with actual Japanese systems, let alone Ninjutsu. And if you're going to try to convince us to take these people seriously, have better arguments. Or better people to bring us. These ones are too easy.
     
  14. Shawn Lindsay

    Shawn Lindsay White Belt

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    Hi guys. I'm new to martial talk forum. but I thought I would drop my .02 pence worth.
    I also have a membership to martial-forums and I seen this guy ronin7411 on there too. Thats where I found this link to a new ninja website
    http://thirdworldninja.webs.com/
    Ronin (co-owner)is teamed up with these guys
    http://www.youtube.com/user/kissrdbc#p/u/130/ISzBtHzjdWM (and his lovely girlfriend(owners)

    http://www.youtube.com/user/SuburbanNinja8000#p/u/26/o3G1ErFdVb8 (gyu whos idea it was)

    and
    http://www.youtube.com/user/o0oNaturalOneo0o#p/u/11/AU6GOK7E-cY (who is their most active member)

    I'm not one to talk bad about people, so I thought I'd let them dig their own grave in their own words.
     
  15. Jon-Bhoy

    Jon-Bhoy Yellow Belt

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    oh
    my
    god!
     
  16. ronin7411

    ronin7411 Orange Belt

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    Shawn, everyone already knew that I posted ads for people to train with on other sites to see if there are other people in my area looking for people outside of their schools to do some additional training with no matter what style or school they're from. (So far only Sherdog and Craigslist is the only place I would recommend for people to post training partner ads at) Second, so what I belong to a website where there a 2 Koga Ryu and 2 Togakure Ryu practitioners saying what we known on Ninjutsu and doing comparisons between each style to advance all of our training. I learned things from Blacksword Shinobi that are associated with the Togakure Ryu and he has learned things from me regarding my training in Koga Ryu and it goes with the other members of the site as well. If you don't like the site don't sign up for it if you want to join the site or help out to make it better join and talk to Shinobi, Rin, or Suburban so that they can make it better for all Ninjutsu practitioners to share knowledge with each other.
     
  17. Shawn Lindsay

    Shawn Lindsay White Belt

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    Yes we do know 'how' you look like. You have a public profile. Learn what security settings are.
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001355498151
     
  18. Shawn Lindsay

    Shawn Lindsay White Belt

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    is is possible this website is doing more harm than good? are you aware that there is a spellcheck function?
    did you know the gunpowder page is going to get some dumb kid killed?
    http://thirdworldninja.webs.com/kayakujutsugunpowder.htm
     
  19. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    This thread is locked, pending staff review.

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