Liars in the Martial Arts

[hardheadjarhead]

Okay, folks...this sort of got going in a thread over in "Knife Arts".

How many of you have run into compulsive liars in the martial arts who misrepresent their training? How about guys that say they're former Spec Ops? I link the two because I see the same dynamic affecting both groups...and often they cross over with the Rambo types who are ninth dans in Ninjutsu who did seven tours in 'Nam and Laos...and are more than willing to tell you about it.

I KNOW you guys have some stories. I have a bunch...but I'd like to hear yours.

Regards,


Steve Scott

 

[Cruentus]

One of my best friends actually is Special Ops (he's in a Ranger Unit). I think it's fun to watch someone lie about what they do in the military, just so I can watch my friend put them through the ringer.

It's funny because I run into younger guys (under 25 yrs old) all the time who are in the military, but who lie about their jobs. One guy who was stationed in Germany, and didn't even get his jumper wings was trying to tell us that he was a sniper, and he had jobs that "he couldn't talk about" when he was stationed. Yea....he couldn't talk about it because he didn't want to tell us about all the paper he was pushing behind a desk!

It's even worse when they never even served, and they say they did! Out by my Fiancee's moms house in Western michigan there is this creepy older guy that lives by himself, and is known for telling his stories about how he was intercepted by blackhawks while he was hunting to go do spacial jobs for the CIA.

It's sad, but you gotta laugh! :rofl:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well I have run into good guys who have served a tour, and most of them do not talk about it. And I have run into some bad guys, who are out there.

Now A friend of mine and myself are real bad when we hear stuff liek that. We like roll our eyes up in our head and then stair off into space and then spout some real garbage about WWII or Korean War, or about being a space and flying a shuttle. Then we like focus back in and look around, and say, "Did it happen again?" Most of these people do not talk about the exploits around us after only one episode.

Now, I do not mean my antics as disrespect to anyone who has served. I respect that their service, yet I try to show these guys just how stupid they look, without causing a fight, by a direct challenge or calling them out.

Just my way, maybe not the best, yet, talking about being in active service about 20-30 years before I was born gets the point across most of the time.

With Respect
:asian:

 

[Karazenpo]

Years ago my friend opened a nightclub and asked if I'd help with their bouncers, specifically on liability issues as I am also a police training officer. He asked me if I'd take the floor with them and work the door on opening weekend. Of course someone has to tell some guy in the club of my background and he comes over to talk. Harmless, not threatening, but never-the-less just all the bullsh.t........He asks my rank I was a godan at the time and o fourse so is he, in kempo no less. I asked him if he had the form Kobayashi Maru (sp.?) and then 'caught' myself and said, "Of course you have it, it is a mandatory requirement in all kempo arts for 5th degree black." He jumped on that one. So I 'm saying what an excellent form that is and asked what he thought of it and so forth. You see I really baited him in before I told him he was so full of sh.t that the name Kobayashi Maru- I took from a Star Fleet Academy training exercise I recently heard of on a new Star Trek movie at that time! He put his eyes down and walked away, finished his drink and left. Never saw him again. I had another guy, legitimate black belt instructor in the Okinawan arts actually tell me he could stop an aggressive attacker charging at him with his mind control. I won't even get into what I told him , lol. Many more incidents but I'm sure we all could go on forever on this topic. Yeah, you guys are right, you do hear that 'special ops' thing all the time. I've caught a few of those phonies myself! Great post! Funny stories, if these people ever realized how foolish they sound to us! LOL. Hey, next time it happens use that Kobayashi Maru form and see if you can trap someone and let me know, we'll all have a good laugh, thanks! 'Joe"

 

[clapping_tiger]

There was a guy who I worked with who was about 19 years old. Tried to tell us he was an Army Ranger. He had a tattoo and everything, he showed us. Me and my friend always laughed at hem and told him he was full of it. He was only about 19(21 at the very oldest but that would really be pushing it) first off,so how could he have served his time? The second thing is that we knew his best friends mother who told us he never even enlisted in the armed forces. Why do people this stupid even attempt to fool others.?

 

[John Bishop]

About 5 years ago I was at a local tournament in So. Calif. I had voluntered to judge a kata ring. At first there was just one black belt and myself sitting there waiting for the other judges. This judge had a couple stripes on his belt, and a kenpo patch. So, as usual I asked him where he was from. He told that he had trained with a local kenpo instructor, but now he was training with a kung fu instructor in the mountains. So, having spent a lot of time in the local mountains I asked him about this instructor. He told me the gentlemens name, and went on to tell me that he had trained at the Shaolin Temple. I said "Oh Really" thinking to myself of all the so called Shaolin Temple claims I had heard over the years. Then the black belt said "I know he's real because he has the scars". That statement took me by surprise, because I couldn't figure out what he was talking about. So I asked "what do you mean, scars". He then looked at me, and with a straight face said, "he has the dragon and tiger scars burn't on his arms". I really didn't know what to say to him at the time, but the thought of it kept a smile on my face all day.

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by PAUL

It's funny because I run into younger guys (under 25 yrs old) all the time who are in the military, but who lie about their jobs. One guy who was stationed in Germany, and didn't even get his jumper wings was trying to tell us that he was a sniper, and he had jobs that "he couldn't talk about" when he was stationed. Yea....he couldn't talk about it because he didn't want to tell us about all the paper he was pushing behind a desk!

I'm not trying to challange you but, do marines need to go to jump school to be a sniper. Just wondering.

Originally posted by clapping_tiger

There was a guy who I worked with who was about 19 years old. Tried to tell us he was an Army Ranger. He had a tattoo and everything, he showed us. Me and my friend always laughed at hem and told him he was full of it. He was only about 19(21 at the very oldest but that would really be pushing it) first off,so how could he have served his time?

Again, I'm not really trying to defend this guy, but if he was 21, then couldn't he have put his 4 yrs in. Most of the time, if I'm not mistaken, the training that it takes to get into the rangers (jump school, ranger training, ect) is included in your tour.

Note: I've never been in the military, so I'm looking for info more than challanging or providing info.

 

[Shiatsu]

Well as being military. No you don't have to go to jump school to be a "Marine" sniper. I'm not sure about the Army snipers, but pretty much everyone in the Army goes to jump school.

As for liers in the martial arts, well there are plenty. I have a good one for you. I will give you the link. He only actually tested for his Black in Red Dragon karate. His Taekwondo rank was bought, he can't even show you all of the forms for black. He is something in Taiho jitsu, yet he never actually studied it. Taekenjuryu, he founded and gave himself the rank, same with his White dragon rank. He basically bought all the others. Even became religious to win more students in the area. Yet continued to drink and smoke. By the way it is the Mormon religion, otherwise I wouldn't bring it up.

He has blackbelts go from white belts to 2nd or 3rd degree in a matter of two years. I know a kenpo black belt there that went from white to black in "white dragon" in under a year, look under the sensei profiles and you do the math.


www.wdob.net

Oh ya the fifth degree masters went from 1st to fifth in 2.5 years.

Reminds me of Red dragon in California. Black Belt program and the whole nine yards. Threatening former students. You name it.:soapbox:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Nah...you don't have to go to jump school to be a Marine sniper. Didn't when I was in, anyway. Most of the jump billets went to guys who were in Force Recon units...or Anglico. You'd get your lead wings and then go back to your unit and get your jumps in for your gold Navy jump wings. But I digress.

I have a friend named Jeff Westfall...a Muay Thai and JKD/Kali instructor in Evansville Indiana...who was at a party. He heard someone talking about martial arts and drifted over to listen in, naturally, as any of us would do.

The guy was sort of bragging to a girl or girls about his kickboxing experience. Eventually he started talking about his instructor...now Jeff didn't know the guy doing the bragging, but he was VERY familiar with the instructor the guy was claiming to train under. The guy said he trained under Jeff Westfall!

Clarification: There is only ONE Jeff Westfall teaching kicboxing in Evansville, Indiana. In fact, there may be only one Jeff Westfall in that region.

Jeff said something like "Who did you say your instructor was?"

"Jeff Westfall."

Jeff pulled out his driver's license and asked him, "What do you notice about this?"

The guy said...I kid thee not..."You have the same name as my instructor!"

Jeff said, "I think we both know that isn't the case." The guy sort of wilted, and skulked away.

------------------
Jeff...if you read this story, forgive me. I had to pass it on.

Jeff, by the way, just got promoted to Full Instructor under Dan Inosanto, and received his Associate Instructor rating under Ajarn Chai Sirisute.

Jeff is a great guy...and one of the brightest and best read martial artists I've ever met. He's up there with Rich Parsons.

Danged hyperintellectuals. Its bad enough they're smarter than me, but when they can also kick my butt...all the while quoting Proust or Nietzche...that just makes me steam.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Nah...you don't have to go to jump school to be a Marine sniper. Didn't when I was in, anyway. Most of the jump billets went to guys who were in Force Recon units...or Anglico. You'd get your lead wings and then go back to your unit and get your jumps in for your gold Navy jump wings. But I digress.

I have a friend named Jeff Westfall...a Muay Thai and JKD/Kali instructor in Evansville Indiana...who was at a party. He heard someone talking about martial arts and drifted over to listen in, naturally, as any of us would do.

The guy was sort of bragging to a girl or girls about his kickboxing experience. Eventually he started talking about his instructor...now Jeff didn't know the guy doing the bragging, but he was VERY familiar with the instructor the guy was claiming to train under. The guy said he trained under Jeff Westfall!

Clarification: There is only ONE Jeff Westfall teaching kicboxing in Evansville, Indiana. In fact, there may be only one Jeff Westfall in that region.

Jeff said something like "Who did you say your instructor was?"

"Jeff Westfall."

Jeff pulled out his driver's license and asked him, "What do you notice about this?"

The guy said...I kid thee not..."You have the same name as my instructor!"

Jeff said, "I think we both know that isn't the case." The guy sort of wilted, and skulked away.

------------------
Jeff...if you read this story, forgive me. I had to pass it on.

Jeff, by the way, just got promoted to Full Instructor under Dan Inosanto, and received his Associate Instructor rating under Ajarn Chai Sirisute.

Jeff is a great guy...and one of the brightest and best read martial artists I've ever met. He's up there with Rich Parsons.

Danged hyperintellectuals. Its bad enough they're smarter than me, but when they can also kick my butt...all the while quoting Proust or Nietzche...that just makes me steam.

Regards,

Steve Scott

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Anglico.

BTW, That's a great story!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
. . .
Jeff is a great guy...and one of the brightest and best read martial artists I've ever met. He's up there with Rich Parsons.

Danged hyperintellectuals. Its bad enough they're smarter than me, but when they can also kick my butt...all the while quoting Proust or Nietzche...that just makes me steam.

Regards,

Steve Scott

Steve,

Wow, you know another Rich Parsons. As I know my dad does not train maybe it is the CEO of AOL? Cause I know you are not talking to me. We just met at the DE WMAA Camp. And if for some reason you are. Thank you Sir. This has me floored.

BTW I never did quote the Conscious thread of Neitzche while instructing or any other such quotes. you make us sound like the old bards who would be singing and fighting at the same time.

Once again WOW!
:asian:

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by OULobo

Again, I'm not really trying to defend this guy, but if he was 21, then couldn't he have put his 4 yrs in. Most of the time, if I'm not mistaken, the training that it takes to get into the rangers (jump school, ranger training, ect) is included in your tour.

Note: I've never been in the military, so I'm looking for info more than challanging or providing info.

Just to clarify
I did say that if he was 21 that was really pushing his age. This was about 5 years ago that I worked with him and I don't think he was of drinking age. Also remember the clincher of the story was that his best friends mother told us he has never even been in the military. You do have to enlist in order to become a Ranger. He was a guy who probably always wanted to be a big army guy but did not have the courage to actually go through with it, or couldn't for some reason and still wanted to have the bragging rights.

Unfortunately I can't tell you anything about the armed services except how fun the MEPS and ASVAB tests are, althoough you do get to meet a lot of interesting people. When I tried to enlist back in 1993 I failed my Physical, I had a problem with High Blood Pressure and they didn't want me. They put me on medical protocol which meant I had to see a doctor a couple of times and they did some tests but in the end they still didn't want me. Oh well, if I had gone I never would have met my wife.

By the way HardHeadJarHead, Excellent story wish I could have been there to see that.:rofl: :rofl:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Years ago my friend opened a nightclub and asked if I'd help with their bouncers, specifically on liability issues as I am also a police training officer. He asked me if I'd take the floor with them and work the door on opening weekend. Of course someone has to tell some guy in the club of my background and he comes over to talk. Harmless, not threatening, but never-the-less just all the bullsh.t........He asks my rank I was a godan at the time and o fourse so is he, in kempo no less. I asked him if he had the form Kobayashi Maru (sp.?) and then 'caught' myself and said, "Of course you have it, it is a mandatory requirement in all kempo arts for 5th degree black." He jumped on that one. So I 'm saying what an excellent form that is and asked what he thought of it and so forth. You see I really baited him in before I told him he was so full of sh.t that the name Kobayashi Maru- I took from a Star Fleet Academy training exercise I recently heard of on a new Star Trek movie at that time! He put his eyes down and walked away, finished his drink and left. Never saw him again. I had another guy, legitimate black belt instructor in the Okinawan arts actually tell me he could stop an aggressive attacker charging at him with his mind control. I won't even get into what I told him , lol. Many more incidents but I'm sure we all could go on forever on this topic. Yeah, you guys are right, you do hear that 'special ops' thing all the time. I've caught a few of those phonies myself! Great post! Funny stories, if these people ever realized how foolish they sound to us! LOL. Hey, next time it happens use that Kobayashi Maru form and see if you can trap someone and let me know, we'll all have a good laugh, thanks! 'Joe"

Kobayashi, Kobayashi????

I know! He was the "man with the plan", in Usual Suspects, with Kevin Spacey.

:rofl: :rofl:

--Dave

:asian:

 

[ABN]

I resent the whole tone and intent of this thread. It is people like you who made my life difficult when I was single and trying to meet women. Guys like you always laughed when I explained that I was the door gunner on the space shuttle

Seriously though, I have had a few occassions where I have had to make on the spot corrections of young E-2's roaming through airports wearing medals they weren't entitled to (my favorite was the Air Force E-2 wearing the Navy Cross). My dad likes to joke that the reason we had so many problems in Vietnam was that all of the SF guys were in Ocean City, MD at the time. Every time they went to lock up some drunk it was "don't mess with me I'm a green beret." or "I'm a black belt.." I had no idea that Ocean City had such a vibrant spec ops community...


andy

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by ABN
I resent the whole tone and intent of this thread. It is people like you who made my life difficult when I was single and trying to meet women. Guys like you always laughed when I explained that I was the door gunner on the space shuttle
...
andy

Andy,

As we never saw each other for you know those classified reasons, I was the Port Door Gunner, I can only assume you were the Starboard side? :rofl:

Sorry everyone I could not resist

 

[ABN]

Rich,
You were under orders not to discuss any aspects of that highly classified mission that took place! I have turned your name over to that guy in the CIA who hand picked us for that mission right after we got back from Dallas in November of 1963. You remember him his name was.......(shhhhh) Marvin Gardens.


andy

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by ABN
Rich,
You were under orders not to discuss any aspects of that highly classified mission that took place! I have turned your name over to that guy in the CIA who hand picked us for that mission right after we got back from Dallas in November of 1963. You remember him his name was.......(shhhhh) Marvin Gardens.


andy

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by ABN
Rich,
You were under orders not to discuss any aspects of that highly classified mission that took place! I have turned your name over to that guy in the CIA who hand picked us for that mission right after we got back from Dallas in November of 1963. You remember him his name was.......(shhhhh) Marvin Gardens.


andy

:rofl: Oh my gosh you got me laughing and I was expecting something like this.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Rich,

Yeah...I was talking about you. You impressed me with your range of knowledge when we were talking over coffee. I got the impression you were a true polymath, and well studied across the spectrum.

I thought the CEO of AOL was Steve Case. But then he's just the founder, not the CEO, I guess. SEE??? You did it again. Went and outclassed me in the cultural literacy area.

I laughed my tail off on that "door gunner on the space shuttle" line, Andy. That was classic. I'm using that one.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Okay...back to topic. My next story.

Guy walks into a school I'm teaching in, November of 1982. I recall it clearly...it was snowing. He is walking like Kwai Chang Caine going across rice paper...wearing a black gi, fresh out of the package by its looks. No belt.

Let us call him Johnny. Not his real name.

He says he wanted to train. I ask him if he's ever studied martial arts before. He tells me he is a 5th dan in Kung Fu and a 5th dan in Ninjutsu. I ask him who he trained with in Kung Fu and where...he says he trained in Indianapolis, but his instructor died. I ask him who he trained under in Ninjutsu. It was the era of Ninjamania, so I figured maybe he'd gone to Ohio to train under Stephen Hayes.

He looks up at the ceiling, trying to recall. "What was his name?" He says. You can tell its on the tip of his tongue...or something.

At this point I recognize what type of person I've got on my hands. I can't resist. I bait.

"Was it Hatsumi, Johnny?"

"YEAH. That was him."

"Wow. Where did you study with him?"

"China."

"China, Johnny? Hatsumi lives in Japan."

And then, a dismissive wave of the hand.

"China, Korea, Japan. It was one of those places. I don't remember."

Johnny, who was 27, would jump around from school to school and train a bit. Everybody let him wear his belt. He'd go to each school and tell the people there how he kicked the butts of the other instructors in town. This backfired for him...because we knew each other.

A local TKD instructor called the Kenpo instructor (we'll call him Bill)and chortled, "Hey, Johnny says he kicked your butt!" Bill, an old timer under Ed Parker, took umbrage to that.

When Johnny came into his school, the Bill made it a special sparring day and beat the snot out of poor Johnny. Handily. The Ninjutsu footwork just wasn't on that day. Covered in blood and crying, Johnny yelled, "Well, that's all and good, Bill, but that wouldn't work on the street!"

"Well, Johnny, do you want me to drag you out on the street and try it out there?"

The last I heard of Johnny he had passed some bad checks at a 7-11. He went down to the place he'd passed them, said he was a cop, flashed a badge, and managed to get the bad checks back from the clerk on duty. He told her he needed them for evidence. She knew they had bounced...but had no idea the perp was actually the "cop" she was handing them over to.

He called my school once posing as one of his own students (he never had any)...and then bragged about himself.

Regards,

Steve Scott