kicks that can kill an opponent

Discussion in 'Karate' started by onibaku, Aug 26, 2007.

  1. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    If the fighter that suffered a tib/fib fracture is under the impression that he fractured his femur, then he was either misinformed, or he's ignorant of basic anatomy. If you believe him after seeing this video, I suggest you consult a doctor or a medical professional that you trust, since you don't trust us.
     
  2. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    I said, considering the health of the target-degenerative stress fracture at the femoral neck occurs for athletes at relatively young ages, resulting in hip replacement-see several judo people, Chuck Norris, Bo Jackson (remember, "Bo knows whatever?") and Hulk Hogan. Prior to their hip replacement, they were all vulnerable to just the scenario you've mentioned (I've fallen, and I can't get up) and it consequently wouldn't take much of a powerful kick to cause that kind of damage....though why one would kick someone there in a self-defense situation escapes me.....unless, of course, they trained exclusively in Muay Thai, and kicked there out of habit-though they'd be more likely to aim for the nerves, a little lower, it still might be enough to cause a break at the femoral neck, dependent upon the other variable, which would be the positioning/stress of the target at the time the kick landed.....
    ....all speculation on my part, but I think it's possible-just not very likely.
     
  3. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    Agreed.
     
  4. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Of course, the odds of a break are increased by a stomp to the femur of a prostrate assailant.....:lol:
     
  5. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    Of all the people that wouldn't let that die, I never thought it would've been you.
     
  6. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    What can THE BROWN do for you?
     
  7. Last Fearner

    Last Fearner 2nd Black Belt

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    Well, truth, you might not "think" anyone has such control, but the truth is that many of us do.

    Allow me to introduce myself..... I am Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart. :mst:

    If you would prefer to meet in person, call my school for an appointment. :)

    That is the general idea, Doc. First you learn the power of a kick to break smaller bones, then work your way up to being able to break larger bones. Once you have attained the ability to do certain kicks correctly, there is not any bone, in any human body - - no matter what the condition of the bone or the surrounding muscle, that can not be broken. Excessive fat on a morbidly obese person might make access to some bones difficult, but alternate bones and joints would then be targeted.

    The femur is not as difficult to break with a kick as some non-kickers might think. From a medical standpoint, all one needs to do is consult medical journals and records to see how many femurs have been broken over the years in accidents (automobile, mountain climbing, sports: football, soccer, etc.). Don't think for a moment that I can not generate sufficient power to destroy a femur, nor that it would be too difficult to target and break instead of popping the hip or knee (either of which might occur as well). This is exactly what we train to do in Taekwondo, and many of us are quite capable of doing it very well.
     
  8. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    I'm more than familiar with broken bones, but that's not the point. We can see that bones are easily broken, as the above video proves. The kicker broke two of his own bones with one blow. What skill...

    & for the record, I "don't think for a moment" about anyone here. I do my damndest to never assume that I know someone else's skills from their internet social skills.

    Back to the subject of training to break "any bone" in the body... many folks train to NOT be broken, whether through conditioning, flexibility, or movement. That kind of hard training can easily turn into a Rock VS Hard Place scenario. Personally, I don't train to break bones, there are much more vulnerable structures that I can damage to the same effect. Attacks to muscles, nerves, connective tissues, organs, and joints, for example.

    JMO, of course...
     
  9. Last Fearner

    Last Fearner 2nd Black Belt

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    Ouch! That sounds like a jab.

    Do you mean to imply that my natural cheery disposition is not being accurately reflected in my internet social skills once again!?! :ultracool

    Well, perhaps not anyone specifically, but when "thetruth" said this....

    .... and you replied with this....

    It just sounded to me like you were agreeing that it would be rare, if not unheard of to meet someone who could kick hard enough to break the femur. I'm simply saying that there are many out there who can (mostly in kicking systems like Taekwondo), and I happen to be one of them. I'm not special in that way, but I am qualifying my comments by relating my personal training abilities.

    If you and "thetruth" are not primarily kickers, and you don't train to break bones, then I can understand your doubts. However, to dismiss the notion that it can be done, or even that it is relatively easy for someone who is specifically trained to do it seems to me to be an assumption about a whole lot of people and their skills. No offense intended. I just wanted to set the record straight about when you said, "Yeah, I thought that looked funny." Perhaps I misunderstood what you thought looked funny, but it sounded like you were supporting "thetruth's" comment about wanting to meet someone who could break a femur. :idunno:

    While we can toughen our bodies to shield against medium power attacks, and learn to position and move them to prevent breaking, I have yet to find anyone, or any method of training which will make the body tough enough to stop a full power kick from breaking the bones within. That's like training to be able to stand in front of a speeding locomotive, and expect no serious injury.

    Understood.

    Yes, I am aware of those techniques and targets as well, and train on that quite often. However, since the comments at hand were not about alternative methods of self defense, but the likely-hood of someone being able to break a femur with a kick, my response was aligned with that topic.
     
  10. Last Fearner

    Last Fearner 2nd Black Belt

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    I just took a look at that video for the first time, and I would have to agree with the appearances that both the tibia and fibula broke from the impact on the opponents leg as he shielded against the kick. The attacker's leg folded at what appeared to be 3 to 6 inches above the ankle which indicated it wasn't an ankle injury, but it was broken well below the knee. The break was sufficient enough to cause a complete bend when it folded, thus it appears to have been both bones in the lower leg that snapped.

    In any case, this being the result of a poorly executed attack rather than someone attacking the femur with a kick, it tends to support the argument against the Muay Thai philosophy of kicking with the shin for power rather than the instep or ball as in Taekwondo. I would still be interested in any videos that show a kick (such as a side kick) attacking the femur about mid-way between the knee and the hip.
     
  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    The truth about the kick that broke Robs leg was that it was a freak accident, what you see on the video distorts the actual break, it wasn't nearly as bad as it appears. The bone broken gave way when Rob stood on it not when he was kicked. It was cracked when Rob blocked Ross' kick then broke all the way when Rob put his leg on the floor. The sound of it giving way could be heard clearly. Last Fearner is quite correct in that it wasn't a good kick. The video however is distorting it quite badly.
     
  12. theletch1

    theletch1 Grandmaster

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    Regardless of the details of the break, Tez, I cringe everytime I see that video.
     
  13. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    It looks to me that it was broken upon the kick but didn't fold until he tried to bear weight with the injured leg. When he makes contact, it definitely looks as if the leg bent forward in an unnatural way as the kick was retracted.
    Watch the vid again, you can see it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3tU2LglxnI

    here too...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMJgBW_3Dm4

    Two vids on YouTube... I wonder how many times it happens that don't make it to the Internet? Maybe it's not as freak an accident as one might think...
     
  14. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    Nothing was meant by it at all. Just my point that often things are misconstrued over this medium. A facetious remark on my part is taken as a personal attack... who hasn't dealt with that? :angel:
     
  15. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    Given a choice, I prefer to use a kick that makes them wish they were dead...
     
  16. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    I can get behind that... :highfive:
     
  17. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    OK FOLKS let me put it to you in its true value

    any kick that connects with force can kill as a result of complications to the nervous system. the circulatory system. or the a few other systems. it can be be accident or on purpose but it happens
     
  18. FieldDiscipline

    FieldDiscipline 2nd Black Belt

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    Those videos! Ew. Toe curling or what?!
     
  19. chinto

    chinto Senior Master

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    as some one who has treated such accedents as you mentioned I can tell you that a femur is very dificult to brake compared to any other bone in the body. the knee is much more vulnerable, as is the ankle and tib/fib and pelvic gurdle and a lot of other bones. so I would say if its for real and in combat, kicking the femur rather then the knee or other targets is less then practical or smart. ( this from an Ex-EMT) take my word for it, its easier to brake all the other bones then the femur.
    Take out a knee is just as effective and efficent at stoping some one in any situation.
     
  20. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    I absolutely agree. The only bone that I would attack the femur with intent to break it would be the calcaneus, or heel.
    Though this, in general, violates my "hard weapon = soft target / soft weapon = hard target" rule. But for power kicks like this, I'd trust a kick using the heel over a shin kick to attain the result I want & still have me come out injury free in the end.123
     

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