importance of kata?

[onibaku]

I think kata is useless. tell me why karatekas study it

 

[exile]

There are about half a dozen threads on MT exploring exactly why kata are the self-defense heart of karate-based fighting systems, along with a five-foot shelf of book on combat-realistic bunkai for kata, dozens of DVDs showing how kata movements translate into realistic fighting moves, and so on. If you make the effort to become acquainted with all (or any) of this material showing in detail exactly how kata constitute a physical record of effective fighting tactics, and still think they're useless, well, so be it. But doing so before you've looked into any of the above is a bit premature.

You might want to start with the following threads:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29821

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14915

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51803

and follow up on the references to the work of Iain Abernethy, Rick Clark, Bill Burgar, Patrick McCarthy, and Javier Martinez mentioned at various places in the discussion.

 

[twendkata71]

Frankly, the fact that you made this comment shows your lack of knowledge. Plus, we have had this discussion on other threads. Try reading those.
Do you think that kata is useless because you read one of Bruce Lee's books and he said so. Also, you have black belt in karate listed on your profile. What type of karate did you study that doesn't have kata?

I think kata is useless. tell me why karatekas study it

 

[exile]

Also, you have black belt in karate listed on your profile. What type of karate did you study that doesn't have kata?

I also was struck by this, twendkata, but it occurred to me that he may not be in a dojo where bunkai are studied and trained realistically. I gather that there are quite a few schools like that, even in Japan.

The thing is, I think the various thread we've both referred to contain all the information anyone needs to answer his original question, `why do karatekas study kata?' Anyone who reads that material should no longer be in doubt about why; if they don't agree with the conclusions, well, that's a different issue, and I don't see what more we could say. The evidence is out there, certainly...

 

[MJS]

I think kata is useless. tell me why karatekas study it

A few questions for you.

1) What art do you train in?

2) If you do train in an art that contains kata, its possible that you don't understand them, because you were never taught to understand them. In other words, if your instructor can't provide you with some breakdowns, how would you expect to know what a kata is for, other than just blindly running thru a series of moves.

3) There are countless threads, as exile has pointed out, on the debate of kata. If you're here to ask legit questions, fine, but if you're here to cause issues, I suggest you read the General posting rules of this forum!

Mike

 

[aplonis]

In short, kata (forms, poomsae, hyung) require you to practice a wider variety of elements and combinations. Left to your own you'll only do the things you are already good at.

Kata reveal your weaknesses, among them, weakness of memory. Forgetting them shows you haven't been practicing them. Finding time for 30 plus forms is an obsticle, I know. But the embarassment of stumbling through one with others watching is the goad to stay in practice even when time otherwise would seem to disallow.

I used to feel as you do, back a long time ago. I still don't enjoy having to keep so many memorized since memorizing lists ranks chief among my own personal mental deficiencies...as my wife will testify from any number of times she has sent me to the store to buy "just a few items".

But even so I see forms as entirely worthwile to the maintenance of the art. Forms are MA spinach. You need them no matter what.

From my own experience, one of the things that makes them more palatable is the attitude of our GM, Monte Beghtol, 10th Dan. Some of the moves seem to make no sense at first glance. Ask him, though, and he will proffer an explanation...often a personal demonstration. He'll get to that point in the form and say, come at me with a punch (kick, knife hand, whatever) then he'll do the mystery move in a way wholly consitent with the form and which demonstrates it's unquestionable effectiveness.

I remember in the TKD form Palgwe 4 a spear hand/180 degree turn/hammer fist combo which made no sense to me at the time. GM Beghtol was visiting on that day, so I asked. He demonstrates that bar, getting to the spear hand part, and says, "Grab my wrist as if you're going to try a throw or wrist lock." I do that. Then his spear hand shifts to a counter-grab of my own wrist, he does the twist, and I am arched painfully backward as he does the spin still locked onto my own wrist and next thing I know I'm looking at his descending hammer fist. Hey...it was a jujutsu-like move, and worked perfectly. All I needed was the right vector for that grip. I love that move now. It was only in the form, not anywhere else. GM Beghtol has an explanation for every move in every form. Nor does he insist that you accept his. Every student is free to make up their own explanation. That is how forms come alive in the mind of every student. Without these mental scenarios the forms are just a stupid shadow dance. Maybe that's the problem?

 

[exile]

I remember in the form Palgwe 4 a spear hand/180 degree turn/hammer fist combo which made no sense to me.

I know the stage in the form you're referring to; we train the `pressing down block' that accompanies the spearhand strike as a slapping punch deflection setting up the `spear', which is in fact a rotated palm-heel strike to the face, with a hair or ear-grab as that downward arcing followup muchimi continuation to the `spear'; and we do a 360º turn which pulls the trapped, already miserable attacker around and down. The hammerfist is a hard blow to the side of his temple. The robustness of kata, hyungs etc.—the fact that they lend themselves to so many good, effective applications—is one of the best things about them.

(On the other hand, in Palgwe Chil-Jang, we do the late, standard 360º turn as a 180º instead...)

 

[Tez3]

I know those moves from Wado Ryu kata! it's also in Pyung Sam Dan albeit a little differently. The explanation Exile gives is the one I was taught in Wado, I've always liked it!

We do kata because we understand it's importance, if you don't like kata, don't do it, simple really.

 

[exile]

I know those moves from Wado Ryu kata! it's also in Pyung Sam Dan albeit a little differently.

Bingo, Tez! Thanks for the tip about the Wado Ryu treatment—do you happen to recall the particular name(s) of the kata involved? One of my little projects over the past while has been going through various hyungs that I do and cross-referencing combat subsequences of them both to other hyungs and also to karate kata—an awful lot of the Palgwes, for example, are mixmastered and recombined from material in the Pinan kata set.

We do kata because we understand it's importance, if you don't like kata, don't do it, simple really.

That's really the whole story!

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I was going to. But I wont. :jediduel: This time.

 

[Kacey]

I know the stage in the form you're referring to; we train the `pressing down block' that accompanies the spearhand strike as a slapping punch deflection setting up the `spear', which is in fact a rotated palm-heel strike to the face, with a hair or ear-grab as that downward arcing followup muchimi continuation to the `spear'; and we do a 360º turn which pulls the trapped, already miserable attacker around and down. The hammerfist is a hard blow to the side of his temple. The robustness of kata, hyungs etc.—the fact that they lend themselves to so many good, effective applications—is one of the best things about them.

That sounds very similar to a set of movements in Do-San tul, the 3rd pattern in the Ch'ang H'on set.

No matter how independently forms arose, there are only so many ways in which the body can move, and only so many ways in which one person can act on another. The combinations will be different, as will the emphasis on types of strikes (hand, foot, elbow, knee, soft, hard, etc.), but in the end, similar problems will create similar solutions, as each person/group experimenting with such movements comes closer and closer to the "ideal" solution.

 

[exile]

That sounds very similar to a set of movements in Do-San tul, the 3rd pattern in the Ch'ang H'on set.

No matter how independently forms arose, there are only so many ways in which the body can move, and only so many ways in which one person can act on another. The combinations will be different, as will the emphasis on types of strikes (hand, foot, elbow, knee, soft, hard, etc.), but in the end, similar problems will create similar solutions, as each person/group experimenting with such movements comes closer and closer to the "ideal" solution.

This I believe to be one of the fundamental truths of the MAs. It makes a lot of the wrangling about which style is `superior' or better for street defense (or whatever) look, in the end, like a bunch of futile bickering, like the blind men and the elephant...

 

[aplonis]

I know the stage in the form you're referring to; we train the `pressing down block' that accompanies the spearhand strike as a slapping punch deflection setting up the `spear', which is in fact a rotated palm-heel strike to the face, with a hair or ear-grab as that downward arcing followup muchimi continuation to the `spear'; and we do a 360º turn which pulls the trapped, already miserable attacker around and down. The hammerfist is a hard blow to the side of his temple. The robustness of kata, hyungs etc.—the fact that they lend themselves to so many good, effective applications—is one of the best things about them.

(On the other hand, in Palgwe Chil-Jang, we do the late, standard 360º turn as a 180º instead...)

I am supposing that 360º might better describe the move from the point of view of turning of the head and the final direction of travel ending up the same. So indeed, a full 360º from that point of view.

But I tend to consider moves more from a footwork perspective. Looked at in terms of footwork alone it comes out to only 180º since the opposite foot comes to the fore tracing only half a circle while the once-forward foot is pivot ending up in the rear.

Sorry to have confused the issue.

 

[exile]

I am supposing that 360º might better describe the move from the point of view of turning of the head and the final direction of travel ending up the same. So indeed, a full 360º from that point of view.

But I tend to consider moves more from a footwork perspective. Looked at in terms of footwork alone it comes out to only 180º since the opposite foot comes to the fore tracing only half a circle while the once-forward foot is pivot ending up in the rear.

Sorry to have confused the issue.

Gotcha, aplonis! (I have problems with spatial orientation, and translating verbal descriptions into 3-D visualisations—neither of them good if you're a MAist, believe me!—so I actually had to perform the Palgwe physically to see what you were getting at... duh...) That makes sense.

 

[Steel Tiger]

But I tend to consider moves more from a footwork perspective. Looked at in terms of footwork alone it comes out to only 180º since the opposite foot comes to the fore tracing only half a circle while the once-forward foot is pivot ending up in the rear.

I too look at forms from a perspective of footwork. I do this because power comes from the ground, through footwork. Thus, if my footwork is good, I have balance and power. I often teach forms without the hand movements so that my students can get a better feel for proper, balanced footwork.

Footwork is one of the major reasons to study forms (kata, sets, patterns, whatever you prefer to call them).

 

[chinto]

I think kata is useless. tell me why karatekas study it

your profile claims a BB in a system of karate and you can ask this question???

some how I think I will just say tht if you DO Indeed HAVE a even a Shodan Ho in any System of Karate you would know the answer to the question.

 

[chinto]

Frankly, the fact that you made this comment shows your lack of knowledge. Plus, we have had this discussion on other threads. Try reading those.
Do you think that kata is useless because you read one of Bruce Lee's books and he said so. Also, you have black belt in karate listed on your profile. What type of karate did you study that doesn't have kata?

yep! I found myself asking the same question!! I find the 2 threads he has opened to make me wonder if he has ANY training in Any system of Karate????....

 

[Tez3]

Bingo, Tez! Thanks for the tip about the Wado Ryu treatment—do you happen to recall the particular name(s) of the kata involved? One of my little projects over the past while has been going through various hyungs that I do and cross-referencing combat subsequences of them both to other hyungs and also to karate kata—an awful lot of the Palgwes, for example, are mixmastered and recombined from material in the Pinan kata set.



That's really the whole story!

The Wado Kata is Pinan Sandan, I'm on nights tonight and as it's a Bank holiday very quiet so I shall sit when it's my turn at the desk and compare the TSD hyungs we do with the Wado kata and PM you. The Pyung hyung were very easy for me to learn as they were so very similiar.

 

[exile]

The Wado Kata is Pinan Sandan, I'm on nights tonight and as it's a Bank holiday very quiet so I shall sit when it's my turn at the desk and compare the TSD hyungs we do with the Wado kata and PM you. The Pyung hyung were very easy for me to learn as they were so very similiar.

Brilliant, Tez, I appreciate it. :asian: The way in which the various subparts of these kata and hyungs get recycled and recombined is very inspiring, in a way—it shows how much sense the components make on their own. I'll look forward to hearing from you!

 

[chinto]

The Wado Kata is Pinan Sandan, I'm on nights tonight and as it's a Bank holiday very quiet so I shall sit when it's my turn at the desk and compare the TSD hyungs we do with the Wado kata and PM you. The Pyung hyung were very easy for me to learn as they were so very similiar.

that will be interesting... but then I would bet your Pinan katas are slightly diferent from meany of the Okinawan Karate systems Pinan kata..

Wait, meany of the Okinawan Systems Pinan kata are diferent from each other!! at least I know for a fact that my styles Pinan kata are diferent from Matsumura Seito's Pinans...