Kenpo... On the Ground

[KanoLives]

I don't know everything but I do know this, if I am taken to the ground in a fight or a fight I am in goes to the ground I am doing whatever it takes to get out of the situation and this goes for stand up fighting too. If the guy tries slappin me in an arm lock or choke or whatever on the ground I'm not in the UFC or Pride and I follow no rules, I'm gonna rip at that SOB's eyes, throat, nuts, or whatever I can get a hand or mouth. Yes MOUTH. I'll bite the SOB. And that's what I learn from my training in Kempo YOU DO WHAT YOU NEED TO SURVIVE. I'm lettin the animal in me come out and I'm goin caveman style. So go ahead and take me to the ground but if any part of you is in close on me while you're tryin to slap a arm bar or choke on me I'm gonna do whatever I can and I don't need to study BJJ or whatever to learn how to take a good chunk of flesh outta somebody's body. And that's the way I feel on this subject.

:soapbox:

:asian:

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Eggman
i have had opportunities to grapple some well trained individuals. Realizing that being on the ground is not the place for me, i would pinch nerves, bite arms, poke eyes and carpes testes. No grappler in the world can withstand the old grap, twist, pull on the nether regions. For you non believers that is kenpo. Kenpo has not only taught me to react to situations in the ideal phase but also in the non-ideal situation of being mounted on the ground. It has given me the targets and the weapons to get the job done but not necessarily the means. Training outside of the ideal will give more spontaneous responses irregardless of body position.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that feels this way. LOL I must have been typing when you posted Eggman. Ya know what they say about great minds. :rofl:

 

[Elfan]

The base of an art for practical self defense should be staying on your feet and striking with your hands.

Does EPAK circa 1991 have a ground curiculm, no.

Do any of the principles of motion, self defense, logic, change on the ground? No.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Chinese Kempo Al:

You make several good points. However, all Kenpo people would benefit by understanding grappling techniques. Many of Kenpo's techniques such as grabbing, striking, biting, etc. can be easily neutralized by a good grappler.

In Kenpo we learn to block and check a variety of strikes to protect ourselves. In grappling, you learn to protect yourself from close-quarter strikes and grabs that are not part of the Kenpo repertoire. You also learn to attack limbs and necks that are not protected from these same close-quarter positions. Many Kenpo strikes and techniques also expose the striker to submission holds. For instance, striking from atop the guard could expose Kenpoists to arm-bars and triangle chokes.

Grappling teaches you to close gaps. Gaps are necessary to execute strikes in Kenpo. Should a Kenpoist miss the opportunity to strike and wind up in a tight grip with no room to strike or bite, then there are no Kenpo techniques that can help.

Kenpoists can only benefit by understanding principles, positions, attacks, and counters in a ground situation that are outside of our standard repertoire and experience.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Elfan:

I suggest that the principles do change on the ground. Please see my post immediately above.

I also suggest that the Universal Pattern could be enhanced to cover ground defenses. There are two areas to enhance:

1) The Universal Pattern only touches the groud at one point. I suggest that the pattern should be pyramid shaped touching the ground in several places. Think about it. You stand on two feet, but your pattern of movement only has one contact point with the ground. Two opponents stand on four feet with four contact points on the ground. If one or more opponents goes to the ground, then there are more than four points on the ground.

2) Many grappling movements are executed by sliding hands or knees across the body. These movements are closer to the center of the pattern than any currently represented. I suggest there should be another circle around the core of the pattern to illustrate these moves.

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Chinese Kempo Al:

You make several good points. However, all Kenpo people would benefit by understanding grappling techniques. Many of Kenpo's techniques such as grabbing, striking, biting, etc. can be easily neutralized by a good grappler.

In Kenpo we learn to block and check a variety of strikes to protect ourselves. In grappling, you learn to protect yourself from close-quarter strikes and grabs that are not part of the Kenpo repertoire. You also learn to attack limbs and necks that are not protected from these same close-quarter positions. Many Kenpo strikes and techniques also expose the striker to submission holds. For instance, striking from atop the guard could expose Kenpoists to arm-bars and triangle chokes.

Grappling teaches you to close gaps. Gaps are necessary to execute strikes in Kenpo. Should a Kenpoist miss the opportunity to strike and wind up in a tight grip with no room to strike or bite, then there are no Kenpo techniques that can help.

Kenpoists can only benefit by understanding principles, positions, attacks, and counters in a ground situation that are outside of our standard repertoire and experience.

I understand your point but please help me a little more. I can't think of any submission move that does not require a grappler to get in close and be open to strikes. Maybe an ankle lock but even still I have a free leg to wheel at the attacker. And I'm aimin' for the attackers knee in that case. I'm not tryin to take away from any art that focuses on grappling because I am open to what all arts have to offer. As far as needing gaps for strikes I study Chinese Kempo and that is an in close quick strike art. I am learning that I do not need much room between me and an attacker to be effective. And honestly I can't speak for other flavors of Kempo/Kenpo but we do learn some ground techs as well as grappling techs but we would rather not go to the ground nor lock someone up. We are about hitting out targets and getting the hell outta there. Not taking someone to the ground and trying to submit them. But I love the fact that grapplers and wrestlers have the ability to control the other person's body and always look for some pointers and techs in that sense.

:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Chinese Kempo Al:

I'd love to provide some examples, but I don't think I could adequately explain them on this forum. Somethings have to be seen or experienced. I will suggest that you do the following:

Visit the local BJJ school and take a class or two.

Check out some of the popular books or videos on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where you will see SOME of the techniques that would be very hard for a Kenpoist to defend against.

Some of the best books are available are those by Renzo Gracie (especially Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Theory & Technique) available at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, and Borders; and books by Gene Simco available at www.jiu-jitsu.net

Some of the best videos available are those by Mario Sperry at http://www.groundfighter.com/

www.Subfighter.com also has excellent wrestling techniques available for free download

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Chinese Kempo Al:

I'd love to provide some examples, but I don't think I could adequately explain them on this forum. Somethings have to be seen or experienced. I will suggest that you do the following:

Visit the local BJJ school and take a class or two.

Check out some of the popular books or videos on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where you will see SOME of the techniques that would be very hard for a Kenpoist to defend against.

Some of the best books are available are those by Renzo Gracie (especially Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Theory & Technique) available at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, and Borders; and books by Gene Simco available at www.jiu-jitsu.net

Some of the best videos available are those by Mario Sperry at http://www.groundfighter.com/

www.Subfighter.com also has excellent wrestling techniques available for free download

Thanks for the info OFK. I appreciate it.

:asian:

 

[Kalicombat]

My take on the Kenpo on the Ground topic is this: If you get taken to the ground, you've messed up. That is not to say that it cant happen, and you should have some idea about what to expect if you do go to the ground. However, I am not a believer in spending alot of time training ground work. I wrestled at the YMCA in junior high school, so I have the basics, and I've sparred with Jujitsu guys pretty frequently and alot of them cant handle my strength on the ground. I have a story about a training camp I went to about two years ago. Most of the people there were MMA enthusiasts, and alot of the classes were on some aspect of ground work. After being shown some dismounts, locks, etc., the instructor paired us up and told us to go through the material, pretty standard. My partner was quite skilled on the ground, and I had trouble getting out from under him. He had the disadvantage of having a bush of pit hair. After a few unsuccessful tries at bucking him off, I reached up, curled his long pit hair around my index finger, and pulled like hell. He immediately jumped up off of me, and began rubbing his pit. He said it felt like it was on fire. He asked me where I learned that technique because he had never seen it before. I told him it was a Kenpo Secret, common sense.

Gary Catherman

 

[Michael Billings]

Orig. Posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

1) The Universal Pattern only touches the groud (ground) at one point. I suggest that the pattern should be pyramid shaped touching the ground in several places. Think about it. You stand on two feet, but your pattern of movement only has one contact point with the ground. Two opponents stand on four feet with four contact points on the ground. If one or more opponents goes to the ground, then there are more than four points on the ground.

The Universal Pattern is a 3-dimensional representation with sub-patterns originating from whatever extremity or body part you wish to visualize it. Chose whatever part or piece of the pattern you need, triangle, pyramid (4 triangles) or any other base position you chose, say a sphere or circle on the ground and 3 diminsionally including points of origination for you, your weapons or body parts, and your opponent's.

Just a paradigm to analyze motion, whatever part of it works for you is fine, but I see your suggestion within my visualization of the Universal Pattern.

Oss

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Gaps are necessary to execute strikes in Kenpo. Should a Kenpoist miss the opportunity to strike and wind up in a tight grip with no room to strike or bite, then there are no Kenpo techniques that can help. "

Sorry, but absolutely not. First off, I was taught that kenpo techniques FILL the gaps, which are classified as "dead space," and generally seen as no-nos. Ask Clyde, who has--shall I write, "pointed this out to me," pointedly--more than twice. Second off, the techniques covering being caught in a "tight grip with no room," start at yellow belt; Grasp of Death, Captured Twigs, would only be the first of very many examples. (Or look at the sequence Scraping Hooves-Repeated Devastation--Twirling Sacrifice.) The trick of course is to prevent the grip, or grasp, or choke or whatever from fully maturing...not always easy, but there is always, always someplace to go short of the moment in which the grip, or grasp or whatever is fully locked in. And then, if that happens, I doubt very much that anything--BJJ specifically included--is gonna help. You're hosed, and that's it.

This is why, where I study at least, there's always been some ground stuff--it's already in the mix. And yes, it gets practiced. Not as much as it should, but then what does?

I also really wonder about the idea behind all this, which I take to be the idea that if I just learn enough different stuff, I'll become invulnerable...

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: Thanks for the post. I don't believe that if we just learn more stuff we will become invulnerable. Just the opposite. I believe that too many of us feel like we are invulnerable when in fact none of us are. Earlier this year I started training in BJJ and it really fills some gaps in my Kenpo. BJJ has been a real eye opener for me. I love and respect Kenpo, but think that the BJJ folks know some stuff that we don't. I think we all benefit from cross-training and an open mind.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Robert: Thanks for the post. I don't believe that if we just learn more stuff we will become invulnerable. Just the opposite. I believe that too many of us feel like we are invulnerable when in fact none of us are. Earlier this year I started training in BJJ and it really fills some gaps in my Kenpo. BJJ has been a real eye opener for me. I love and respect Kenpo, but think that the BJJ folks know some stuff that we don't. I think we all benefit from cross-training and an open mind.

To be honest, there's nothing in BJJ that we don't have, it's a matter of whether or not you've learned it in the application. They do things on the ground you may not have seen before, they may even apply it differently, but I believe everything I've seen them do, and I've done, is in our curriculum, if you know where to look, and more importantly, who's showing you where. I've been very lucky to have one of Mr. Parker's more brilliant students showing me and feel incredibly silly when he shows me an application standing up that I know works on the ground but was to blind to see it at the time. I don't see the gap myself because I also know the limitations of both arts, at least dimensionally speaking, ie. Height, width, depth, and time, and have taken that into consideration.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

I don't think I'll pursue this very much further, because I think that it'll be enough to make my points clear here:

First, this "closed-mindedness," works in a lot of different ways. One of the ways it works is in the unwillingness to open the mind to what is "in," kenpo already. Sometimes, this is due to--well--inadequate teaching. (I've been lucky: I have lots of folks around who know more than I do, so my screwups as a teacher are often compensated.) Sometimes, it's due to our failures as students--we can't see what's there "in," kenpo until we go somewhere else, and then may very well get so enthused (perhaps because the training situation's better for any number of reasons?) that we never look back.

Those gaps, in other words, come out of teachers and ourselves at least as much as they come out of problems with kenpo itself. But, another argument to get into would concern the politics of kenpo, which do seem to me to be produced in part by a) the system, b) its founders' legacy.

As for the fantasy of invulnerability--basically, what I'm talking about is the constant haring about from system to system to system, each new one jusstified because of its filling gaps, or being superior, or providing something missing. I think that, in the end, this is powered by a dream that some day, all the holes and all the insufficiences (themselves, I suspect, not really there in the curriculum but in ourselves in the first place) are filled. Et voila, l'invulnerabilite.

Yes, I know. Keep the mind open. Sure, fine, OK, absolutely. But does "keep the mind open," really mean, "I've exhausted the knowledge of kenpo, so I need to move on?" Or does it mean, "I think I've exhausted the knowledge of kenpo, so I need to re-examine myself and my training?" Intellectually speaking, anyway, I've stayed "in" kenpo because of its extraordinary complexity and its bottomlessness...

In other words, never keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. Thanks for the discussion, OFK. But I disagree.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I suggest that the principles do change on the ground. Please see my post immediately above.

Posture... balance... relaxation... hmm those seem the same to me.

Allow me to clarify though. Just because "Joe Kenpo" intellecually understands the larger generalized principle of posture doesn't mean that he is able to to apply it. He needs to train posture when solving problems caused by differnt attitudes, environments, ranges, positions, manuvers, targets, weapons, angles, cover... etc.

Does that make sense?

 

[M F]

This thread is causing me to think. Good points made by everyone. Thanks guys. To my point.

1) The Universal Pattern only touches the groud at one point.

The Universal pattern that you seem to be speaking of is a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional concept. The UP can be referenced from any part of your body. (or your opponents) Look at the UP only as a circle, as represented in the patch. Lay it flat on the ground. Now it touches the ground in an infinite number of places. Look a little closer at the UP. There is much more than the two dimensions you seem to be aware of.

 

[Seig]

I've seen and read a lot of comments here, some I agree with, some I don't. To say that to disagree with one individual is to say that I disagree with a master; fine, I disagree with him. The bottom line is this, we all have a similiar base to work from, whether we be 32-24-16 tech systems. Where we go once we have established our base is largely up to the individual practitioner. If you feel you need to go to BJJ, then that may be right for you. Let me ask a simple question, how many of you that teach, teach a break fall to students learning Dance of Death? How many of you see the relevance of that question? Every thing we teach leads into something else. How many of us have learned everything there is to learn in Kenpo? If we have not, then how can we possibly say it is incomplete?:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

OK. I will admit that I have not learned everything there is in Kenpo. Although, I have been doing Kenpo on and off for 30 years and got my 3rd Black in 1993. However, the belief that there is nothing that is not included in Kenpo is not right.

This is the same belief as people who claim that everything anyone needs to know is in the Bible. While most of us can agree that the Bible is the most important book that will ever be, and that there is more truth and wisdom in the Bible than anywhere else, most of us will not agree that everything that can be known or needs to be known is contained in the Bible. There is no book we should read more often than the Bible, but the Bible is not the only book we should read. In this regard, I feel the same way about Kenpo as I do about the Bible.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...no, it ain't.

Most of what is in the Bible is by definition incapable of being demonstrated.

So far, I haven't seen anything--again, I specifically include ground fighting--mentioned or discussed that I haven't found "in," kenpo, demonstrated and explained as part of the "system," and its intellectual structure. If your experience is otherwise, well, what can I tell ya?

Sure, I could work this stuff more. Who couldn't? But as far as being a part of the system--yeah, I've seen people in kenpo who've brought out some aspect that's usually left alone, because of some training they've done elsewhere.

But I think Seig's right. Sure, training must be focused--and that means, "leaving out," some things. It doesn't mean they're absent. An example would be gun techs--there're only four in the strict curriculum (in part because you're crazy to use empty hands against guns), but others can be stitched together. And the Seig example was excellent--IF you do the dummying for "Dance of Death," learn to breakfall or learn to get by without some of those memories and motor skills. And if you look at the extension (another reason not to trim out the "useless" extensions), it's a whole little seminar in dealing with somebody on the ground.

It strikes me as an article of faith, also, that somewhere, somehow, if we just try another system, all those holes will magically get filled. And I stick by the idea that if you're training something you like, cool beans...especially if it gives you a way to recognize, from that "outside," what was "inside," kenpo all along. Just don't assume that some of us are idiots because we learn what we want--and need--to learn, within kenpo.

But then too, it's arguable that there is no "outside," kenpo.

Robert

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: We could go on arguing about this forever. But let's not. We've chosen our paths. I hope our paths both take us where we want to go. It seems ultimately that we both really want the same thing.