Kenpo... On the Ground

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

This has been a topic that I am sure has come up before, but I wanted to pose a question to see where anyone has begun with taking Kenpo techniques to the ground? And what techniques they felt grafted well to a ground situation?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts. Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I agree with you that this is a area that needs to be explored/experimented with by more kenpoist. Kenpo is an incomplete system and one of the few areas that needs work is the ground work. I have never meet Mr Parker but I have read everything that he has written as well as what most of the seniors have written. Through all of my reading one of the many things that I have learned about him was that he would want his art to continue to develpoe and grow and not to become one of the traditional arts that he rebelled against.

With the explosion of BJJ and MMA I think that the natural progression of growth and development of kenpo would be to explore the need for grown work. So the question is who is qualified to be the one to lead us into a new erra and how many people would ***** and complain about it. As I see, as long as the rules, principles, concepts and theories of motion are maintaned the you could develope kenpo grappling. I love to grapple but I do not follow the thinking that "all fights go to the groud". However, some do and WHAT IF?

Manny kenpoist including myself are now cross training in BJJ, Judo and other grownd arts to complete there skills. Is there any of the "whos who/seniors" that want to take on a project like this or is the just to taboo to discuss. :asian:

 

[Seig]

Once again someone has said Kenpo is an incomplete sysytem. Again, this is just not so. Look at what you said closely, you contradicted yourself. Use your principles, etc. on the ground, all that has changed is the angle you are working from.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

We do Kempojujutsu it is similar to EPK. This is what I require for Blue Belt and above.
Know 3 Escapes for the mount
3 ways to break the guard
5 guard pass
3 counter to headlock from the ground
2 ways to pass the side mount
3 ways to counter the rear guard
3 ways to counter the rear mount
knee on the stomach postion counter
counter to rear guard with a choke
counters to arm bars
Counters to chokes

I hope this helps
Bob
:asian:

 

[redfang]

I train Tracy kenpo and we do jujitsu add ons to a variety of techniques as well as shootfighting as taught by Bart Vale (a Kenpo practitioner.) Even without this, I agree that certain principles common to kenpo apply standing or on the ground.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Atlanta_kenpo & True2kenpo

Well, there you go stirring up dissension. As you will see most of the kenpo community doesn't like to think of their SUPERIOR art as having any gaps in it. I'm sure if you were to type in kenpo groundfighting, or something similiar, you would find a number of "Groundfighting threads" that were met with a great deal of resistance and intolerance.

The truth of the matter is, that kenpo does lack a ground curriculum. Am I advocating that everyone go train for years in BJJ, No. BJJ is for the most part a sport art, like judo, but anyone who doubts the lethality or brutality of this particular art doesn't understand it one bit. Until you've had someone tie you up like a pretzel and slap you on the side of your face just to show you how they could be beating your brains in to the ground, you really have no idea. Most people think the art is all about armbars and ankle locks, but the individual who has spent time on the mat realizes that it teaches you how to move on the ground. How to manuever yourself to gain an advantageous position. How to escape various holds that even an untrained fighter has seen on TV. Does this mean that your logic becomes linear? If it does then you shouldn't even be in kenpo.

just because you go to the ground doesn't mean that you have to finish with an armbar. When you break the guard incorporate ballistic striking. Neck crank the motha and punch him in the face until you can get back up. No is saying that you should try to fight on the ground, rather that if something should happen you should at least have some idea of what you're doing. Besides, learning how the different styles teach shooting in can help you avoid being taken down.

Just my, very unpopular, opinion.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
The truth of the matter is, Until you've had someone tie you up like a pretzel and slap you on the side of your face just to show you how they could be beating your brains in to the ground, you really have no idea.

No is saying that you should try to fight on the ground, rather that if something should happen you should at least have some idea of what you're doing until you can get back up.

Some wise thoughts Me thinks!

:asian:

 

[Iron Dog]

Kenpo Yahoo, your opinion may be unpopular, but it is correct IMO. Same for KempoJutsu. I began (then left for some time) what is now called American Kenpo and in it were many escapes and moves from Ju-Jitsu. When I was in Hawaii, the older Kempo people acknowleged the input from JJ, but preferred to do stand up. As I progress back into American Kenpo I DO see a lot of the older techniques applied differently than before and striking being more important almost a "kick boxing" application if you will. I like that though. When I finally purchased The Journey, I was intrigued by the article about Henry Okazaki and the DanZan influence on stand up arts. Once at a seminar with Professor Wally Jay, he spoke of the early days in Hawaii where many of the Island boys who were into martial arts, did Ju-Jitsu as well. \
Whether you like it or not, there are several seniors out there who are doing ground work. I think the curriculum that KempoJujutsu uses is a wise one. It's non- threating to those who are purists, and it has a practical purpose in todays world, where you just might find youself knocked on your keester with a person or persons pounding on you. Good question, good posts..
Patrick I. D.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Today class I grappled with some of my Purple belts. They have been with me less than a year, but have study Tkd before joining my school. I have grappled for about 8 years now. They worked my butt off today. I got submissions from 2 of the 3. The other we called a draw ran out of time and I had things to do. My point is these guys have grappled less than a year and are starting to push me, with my techniques. Not every one is going to be a drunk or inexperince grappler. You may run across someone who knows what they are doing from the ground and you need to practice that.
Bob:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
I agree with you that this is a area that needs to be explored/experimented with by more kenpoist. Kenpo is an incomplete system and one of the few areas that needs work is the ground work. I have never meet Mr Parker but I have read everything that he has written as well as what most of the seniors have written. Through all of my reading one of the many things that I have learned about him was that he would want his art to continue to develpoe and grow and not to become one of the traditional arts that he rebelled against.

With the explosion of BJJ and MMA I think that the natural progression of growth and development of kenpo would be to explore the need for grown work. So the question is who is qualified to be the one to lead us into a new erra and how many people would ***** and complain about it. As I see, as long as the rules, principles, concepts and theories of motion are maintaned the you could develope kenpo grappling. I love to grapple but I do not follow the thinking that "all fights go to the groud". However, some do and WHAT IF?

Manny kenpoist including myself are now cross training in BJJ, Judo and other grownd arts to complete there skills. Is there any of the "whos who/seniors" that want to take on a project like this or is the just to taboo to discuss. :asian:

Try studying a little more...

To say that traditional MAs have had no refinement over the last few decades is crazy talk.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Actually American Kenpo IS A INCOMPLETE SYSTEM and if you disagree with me then you disagree with Lee Wedlake. If you would like to argue with him then that is fine with me because he is much more informed then I to debate this issue. I have had this discussion with master Wedlake the last time he was at our school here in hotlanta and if you care to here his explaination then read his fist book kenpo 101.

As far as MY experience goes I have not been exposed to anyone who is teaching kenpo on the ground. So, my previous comment only expresses my experience and exposure. I do not mean to offend anyone and that is surely not my intention. I would however be interested is hearing who is teaching American Kenpo/grappling because I would LOVE to learn. I grew up wrestling and I am in the begining stages of BJJ so I feel comfortable grappling. However, I also agree that BJJ in mainly sport and just about all of their techniques end up in a arm bars/locks and that leaves you exposed so that his buddy can somp a big mud hole in your ***.

So, if anyone could help me out and point me in the right direction to a Parker kenpo instructor who is teaching kenpo grappling I would be very thankful.:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm going to stay out of this one. I've stated my position on this many times and I dont' feel like debating this again. :asian:

 

[Nightingale]

Kenpo works from the ground. I've seen my instructor use it, and I've seen him teach ground stuff to some of his higher ranking students. Groundfighting can be very different from standing up fighting, partly because its damn hard to execute a stance change or drop your weight when you're sitting on your ***. Your center of balance changes, and so do your points of leverage.

However, kenpo, as KenpoDragon stated, doesn't have a groundfighting CURRICULUM. There's no set list of groundfighting techniques. The principles are there, you just have to go deeper into kenpo to find them. Kenpo is much more than just the techniques.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

What I can't get is kenpo has techniques for multiple attackers, for stick or club, knife and gun attacks but they don't have them for the ground. To me multiple attackers,clubs, knives and gun defense are more unpredicable then grappling on the ground. Sure some of the techniques will work on the ground. But why not have a curriculum dealing with the ground?
Bob :asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
What I can't get is kenpo has techniques for multiple attackers, for stick or club, knife and gun attacks but they don't have them for the ground. Why not have a curriculum dealing with the ground? Bob :asian:

Don't think that Ed Parker didn't realize this. With individuals in his world such as championship bodybuilders, Bruce Lee, Wally Jay, Gene LaBelle and others, ground fighting was not overlooked.

However, at the time, in the early development of American Kenpo there was a conscious effort to avoid to some degree "going to the ground". The priority in self defense is NOT to go to the ground and become vulnerable to additional attacks from a difficult posture. This sort of training was designed to be executed and developed by the advanced student.

It was viewed as something that was not wanted by the public at that time (not that it was overlooked as a need) and so there was not a pressing necessity to sculpt out a specific curriculum for wrestling within the current curriculum.

Even the techniques you mention are just hinted upon and by no means are a complete curriculum for guns, knives, clubs or multiple attacks. All these categories have just a few techniques to build upon for the advanced student to continue to develop a better understanding and discover further material to practice.

Several Kenpo Instructors have material that is excellent on the topic of groundwork and IS a part of their organizations framework.

:asian:

 

[Eggman]

I dont know about anyone else, but here in miami if you end up on the ground during a fight you will be the guest of honor at a boot party. My philosophy is why not practice what will keep you on your feet.

 

[Ginsu]

I have seen this conversation before and I always find it interesting that people always want to say that Kenpo does not work on the ground or is incomplete.

I do agree that yes there are no set techniques that start in what people would believe is a good ground fighting position, or from a mount position.

I also think that if people want to train in another art to learn more then that is great as you can never learn to much. What I find to be sad however is that many of these people that run off to train in something else say they are doing that because they can't find or make their Kenpo work when putting themselves into this what if position.

Now to explain the reason I find this sad has nothing to do with the people, but that they have not had the opportunity to see or explore Kenpo in what many would consider a ground situation. I have had the opportunity to see my instructor and a handful of senior high level instructors discuss this subject and also work some of this and it is extremely educational.

As for Kenpo being stagnet or needing to grow (yes I know kinda of two subjects) remember as Mr Conatser said ealier I believe the techniques are just a base that we all have to go from. The problem is not that Mr. Parker is gone or there is no one to lead or that Kenpo is stagnet, the problem is that many of us are only looking at one picture now instead of the big one and saying that all the techniques and the system is stagnet and that it is the bible that everything must be done a certain way.

Instead of seeing the system for what it is. A powerful set of basics that give us all a base system to work from and learn and then when you have the system thru Black you then have a base to expand on. What we have in American kenpo is large amount of basics (including our techniques) and when you have that then you can let the animal loose that you have been training and that is how Kenpo will always grow. Not with people saying we need to change this or that technique or alter the basics which give a base to be creative from.

Ok so those are just some thoughts some will agree some will not, some will become angry with me for just some words on a forum. However take it for what is worth to you, if that is something, then great, if that is nothing then at least have a nice day and remember you are only as happy as you allow yourself to be.

Ginsu

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo Yahoo is right. Kenpo does NOT teach grappling on the ground.

Kenpo's ground techniques work OK when your opponent is up and you are down and want to get up again.

Kenpo ground techniques work OK when both you and your attacker are on the ground and you are both trying to get up.

Kenpo ground techniques do NOT work very well when both you and your opponent are on the ground and your opponent is trying to keep you there. Kenpo has almost no defense against ground grappling where you are pinned and need to escape.

Anyone who believes Kenpo is effective against a grappler when both are on the ground needs to try rolling with an experienced grappler.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Anyone who believes Kenpo is effective against a grappler when both are on the ground needs to try rolling with an experienced grappler.

:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[Eggman]

i have had opportunities to grapple some well trained individuals. Realizing that being on the ground is not the place for me, i would pinch nerves, bite arms, poke eyes and carpes testes. No grappler in the world can withstand the old grap, twist, pull on the nether regions. For you non believers that is kenpo. Kenpo has not only taught me to react to situations in the ideal phase but also in the non-ideal situation of being mounted on the ground. It has given me the targets and the weapons to get the job done but not necessarily the means. Training outside of the ideal will give more spontaneous responses irregardless of body position.