Kenpo Factions

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Few have the knowledge and expertise to question his skills. I
think it's bold that SO MANY question the leaders and experts in
martial arts.

First off, there is no question of Mr. Parkers skill. Second, how did those experts, in fact become experts? If no one ever questioned how, why, or is there a better way, we would all still be living in caves.

Many are quibbling over the correct sequential order of a technique often times, rather than the principles behind it.

I agree that principles are the most important part of any system. Techniques, from my understanding, are meant to effectively display these principles of self-defense or fighting prowess. When was the last time anyone questioned the effectiveness of the techniques (club,knive, gun, open hand)? Are you telling me that you would lunge forward into a twist stance while an attacker is throwing a flurry of punches? How many people would consider doing a knuckle rake to someones ribs while leaping to one leg amid a powerful onslaught? I'm not trying to be disrespectful (I hope it's not coming across that way), but I think that there are a few techniques that could easily be replaced with something more effective.

Once again, this is just my opinion.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
I agree that principles are the most important part of any system.

Good we got that out of the way!

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Techniques, from my understanding, are meant to effectively display these principles of self-defense or fighting prowess.

Correct....... teach the concepts and principles then give/display one (1) example of it's usage... not "ALL" Variations/possibilities are shown in each base movement.... that's why you need to understand the other "TOOLS" such as the "what if" phases of each technique so you can adapt.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
When was the last time anyone questioned the effectiveness of the techniques (club,knives, gun, open hand)?

The last time we ventured into the "what if" phase of those techniques.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Are you telling me that you would lunge forward into a twist stance while an attacker is throwing a flurry of punches?

Probably not..... but it is possible, regardless this is just one example of a given defense... there are many others that do not do this, probably for the same reason you won't. But that is for your flurry of punches..... "what if" the puncher is slightly reluctant and you "trip" into a twist stance...... just for instance.....

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
How many people would consider doing a knuckle rake to someone's ribs while leaping to one leg amid a powerful onslaught?

Actually I have done this and it worked better than expected.... surprised the pants off of me!
But again, this is another isolated example...

Let me ask you a question...... what if we just delete all the ones you don't like and all the ones I don't like..... and lets call a few friends and delete the ones they don't like.... then what would we have....????? Get my drift.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
I'm not trying to be disrespectful (I hope it's not coming across that way),

No, I don't think you are, good discussion....

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
but I think that there are a few techniques that could easily be replaced with something more effective.

More effective than what....... remember you know what you know.... not what other instructors know, maybe they know of some good examples that we have not thought of yet for those "trouble techniques".

Just a thought

:asian:
:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo



I agree that principles are the most important part of any system. Techniques, from my understanding, are meant to effectively display these principles of self-defense or fighting prowess. When was the last time anyone questioned the effectiveness of the techniques (club,knive, gun, open hand)? Are you telling me that you would lunge forward into a twist stance while an attacker is throwing a flurry of punches? How many people would consider doing a knuckle rake to someones ribs while leaping to one leg amid a powerful onslaught? I'm not trying to be disrespectful (I hope it's not coming across that way), but I think that there are a few techniques that could easily be replaced with something more effective.

Once again, this is just my opinion.

Would you be kind enough to post which techniques you believe should be replaced and with what, why, and try to be specific please.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo



I agree that principles are the most important part of any system. Techniques, from my understanding, are meant to effectively display these principles of self-defense or fighting prowess. When was the last time anyone questioned the effectiveness of the techniques (club,knive, gun, open hand)? Are you telling me that you would lunge forward into a twist stance while an attacker is throwing a flurry of punches? How many people would consider doing a knuckle rake to someones ribs while leaping to one leg amid a powerful onslaught? I'm not trying to be disrespectful (I hope it's not coming across that way), but I think that there are a few techniques that could easily be replaced with something more effective.

Once again, this is just my opinion.

I was under the impression that the techniques were ideas, not the end all be all of Kenpo applied in a real street confrontation. Although I have used a couple Kenpo techniques in a real fight, I have adapted in other situations and done something completely different as well.

Kenpo is what you make of it... I have my favortie techniques, and not so favorite techniques... I think we all do.

I remember absolutely hating one technique in particular... Brushing The Storm. Until I tore it down, move by move, and developed enough skill to execute it properly, I hated it like none other. However, Brushing The Storm is one of my favorite techniques these days. I guess that's because I learned how to make it work, instead of throwing it away...

Refinement is a constant process... Don't throw it out because you can't make it work... Make it work and then... if you still don't like it, do something else (then, at least you can say it is an informed choice).

Hasta,
Billy Lear

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

This has become an excellent thread. I too believe that not enough people understand that the principals and concepts are the meat of the system. Again great discussion. Good question Clyde, I too am curios as to which techs. should be deleted. To go futher, could you explain what principals and concepts are involved in those techs., how they will be acounted for, and so on?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Would you be kind enough to post which techniques you believe should be replaced and with what, why, and try to be specific please.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Alright, I'm probably gonna regret this, but keep in mind the only reason I'm doing it is to get feedback. If I'm totally off base, please tell me. I consider the interaction with you guys as much a part of my learning process as banging out the techniques and forms. If you don't agree please tell me why, as several people including myself could gain valuable insight. Try to keep in mind that these are my opinions and no one elses.

Leaping Crane- I personally see the raking leap to one leg as a bad move. I mean your leaping as the guy is punching at you. Would you not get more power by merely slipping the punch with a parry and a push drag? You would still be on terra firma and have the ability to side kick the leg if the opportunity was still available, if it wasn't then your still in a good position to fight.

Wings of Silk- I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to grab another person in this manner. What is the practical application behind this technique?

Flashing Mace- I have always loved this technique, just because I love the way it rips, but why would you turn your back to an opponent even if just for a split second?

On any of the combination techniques in third brown, why would you want to do a front cross over? Even if the stance change is fast, your still gonna be unstable throughout the transition. Would a push drag or a shuffle not close the gap just as quickly? I can't say that I've ever seen a boxer or NHB fighter ever try a crossover to close the gap unless it was followed by a side kick or a back kick.

Capturing the Storm, Obstructing the Storm, etc..... Anything that uses an upward cross block to stop someone from pile driving a beer bottle or club of some fashion into my head. Some of the club attacks I've seen are tremendously fast, not the ones by kenpo or filipino guys, but the ones from the non-trained guys I can con into working out with me. Besides most seem to want to travel on a diagonal plane like their throwing a baseball. When something has that much velocity wouldn't you want to deflect and divert, or seek some zone of sanctuary (eye of the storm)? Not try to absorb all the force with your wrists, even if your fast enough to get your hands up, if your timing or aim is slightly off then the club breaks your hands and your face.

This is already way to long, and I'm sure people have enough material to throw back at me, so I guess I'll quit for now. Depending on the severity of the backlash, I may continue later. I would however like to be told if my point of view is way off. Don't just get pissed off, if you don't agree take a second to explain what I'm missing. I'm hoping to learn more about my art through this, eventhough I know I'll probably get beat around electronically more than I'll get helped.

Remember, these are my opinions and no one elses.

 

[Klondike93]

Don't throw it out because you can't make it work... Make it work and then... if you still don't like it, do something else (then, at least you can say it is an informed choice).

Good point William, to which I believe Mr. Parker said, "never throw anything away. Catagorize them as useful, unuseful or useless".


:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Good point William, to which I believe Mr. Parker said, "never throw anything away. Catagorize them as useful, unuseful or useless".

I agree with Mr. Lear that you should bust your butt trying to explore a technique. While I'm not sure if Mr. Parker said that, I'll try and look it up, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of keeping something that is "unuseful or useless." There are only so many hours in the day, why would you want to spend time training something that is, as you put it, "useless?"

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo



I agree with Mr. Lear that you should bust your butt trying to explore a technique. While I'm not sure if Mr. Parker said that, I'll try and look it up, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of keeping something that is "unuseful or useless." There are only so many hours in the day, why would you want to spend time training something that is, as you put it, "useless?"

I've always wondered why people put storage sheds in their yards, or their attics are full of "unuseful items". Seems to me that they keep them in order to use them at a later time. You should see some of the stuff I've kept around only to have to NEED it later, sometimes years down the road.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



I've always wondered why people put storage sheds in their yards, or their attics are full of "unuseful items". Seems to me that they keep them in order to use them at a later time. You should see some of the stuff I've kept around only to have to NEED it later, sometimes years down the road.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I have alot of that type of stuff as well...but who knows....

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by jeffkyle




I have alot of that type of stuff as well...but who knows....

Ex-girlfriends hog tied in the attic don't count man

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



I've always wondered why people put storage sheds in their yards, or their attics are full of "unuseful items". Seems to me that they keep them in order to use them at a later time. You should see some of the stuff I've kept around only to have to NEED it later, sometimes years down the road.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I've always thought that was his point, keep it just in case you might need any part of it at a later date, or to tinker with it and see how to improve it.


:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter



Ex-girlfriends hog tied in the attic don't count man

Quit telling on me.....

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
While I'm not sure if Mr. Parker said that, I'll try and look it up, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of keeping something that is "un-useful or useless."

Yes, that WAS an Ed Parker Quote.

I used to have a hard time with "un-useful or useless" as well but remember, there is a purpose for everything ..... such as a comparative analysis tool. Mr. Parker also said, you should "Know of" some things, "KNOW" some things, then "Understand" some things. Some things were just meant to examine not gain tremendous skills with.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
There are only so many hours in the day, why would you want to spend time training something that is, as you put it, "useless?"

You wouldn't TRAIN it if it were useless, but you WOULD want to be able to recognize it so you didn't waste your time. You just file them so you know what 'bad examples' are.

:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

You wouldn't TRAIN it if it were useless, but you WOULD want to be able to recognize it so you didn't waste your time. You just file them so you know what 'bad examples' are.

I see, thank you for taking the time to explain it further.

 

[kenpochip]

Originally posted by GD7 You wouldn't TRAIN it if it were useless, but you WOULD want to be able to recognize it

I'm in software development. There are books in my field out there on Patterns, which are good practices that have already been figured out by someone else (usually lots of someone elses). There are also books out there on Anti-Patterns which are common bad ways of doing things. They explain why following the Anti-Pattern is not as useful as another approach. The Anti-Patterns books are great so that you can make sure you are not doing them.

Chip

 

[Goldendragon7]

A Kenpo book on how NOT to do techniques.......

I think there are a few of these out there ...... right?

:rofl:

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Would you be kind enough to post which techniques you believe should be replaced and with what, why, and try to be specific please.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I tell you what I hate......Squatting Sacrifice!

I have tried to see the merits of this, but it's just crap isn't it!? You expose yourself sooo badly on the leg grabbing bit, especially since no majot strikes have gone in yet, I can't see how it ever came to be.

Ah well, I'm someone out there must like it!

Ian.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Personally, I keep having this recurrent bad experience with dumping kenpo techniques. I go ask Mr. Tatum, he gives me a funny look, and demonstrates exactly why the tech works great. Or--just as often--I find out why the way I'm dummying sucks.

Reminds me of the time a friend of mine, Jeff Learned, told Tak Kubota that front ball kicks to the groin were no good, didn't work. "Not doing kick properly," he was told. "No really, Mr. Kubota," he said, "I've got the kick. I just think the testicles aren't aligned anatomically to get hurt." "Not doing kick properly," again. Jeff insisted he was. He really shouldn't have, as he realized right after Mr. Kubota kicked him, turning his foot slightly to squeeze the wrinklies against the side of the thigh. Oops.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Personally, I keep having this recurrent bad experience with dumping kenpo techniques. I go ask Mr. Tatum, he gives me a funny look, and demonstrates exactly why the tech works great. Or--just as often--I find out why the way I'm dummying sucks.

Reminds me of the time a friend of mine, Jeff Learned, told Tak Kubota that front ball kicks to the groin were no good, didn't work. "Not doing kick properly," he was told. "No really, Mr. Kubota," he said, "I've got the kick. I just think the testicles aren't aligned anatomically to get hurt." "Not doing kick properly," again. Jeff insisted he was. He really shouldn't have, as he realized right after Mr. Kubota kicked him, turning his foot slightly to squeeze the wrinklies against the side of the thigh. Oops.

Very Good................ roflmao........ all too true.....!!!!!!!!!

:asian: