Anatomy Lesson

[ikenpo]

How many out there have studied the anatomy? For those that have what have you found most interesting?

Beyond all the meridian information that exists, and that I hope to study one day, there are many anatomical areas that instructors use as focal points for strikes. So instead of saying hit GB 17 or whatever they will say strike the occipital(sp.) plate or whatever.

What are your thoughts on this? Are there any particular parts of the body that you find yourself targeting more often than not?

jb:asian:

 

[Wertle]

I've studied a lot of *artistic* anatomy, which I suppose is different altogether. However, studying martial arts has helped my life drawing, and life drawing has in turn helped me in my martial arts studies. Yay!

As far as targeting, i'm rather small, so I find myself targeting main vitals as much as possible. Eyes and throat, the sides of knees, etc etc. Of course, i suppose it'd be just as helpful for a large, muscular person to target vitals as a small person ^_^

 

[Michael Billings]

I require the appropriate basic anatomical knowledge required for each belt, with a serious overview at each Brown Belt. I refer beginners to Infinite Insigts, Volume IV, but I do not test them seriously until Brown.

3rd Class Brown - Skeletal System & Types of Joints
2nd Class Brown - Musculature and general knowledge about same.
1st Class Brown - Organs, capacities, functions, location, etc.
1st Black - Neuro and Lymphatic systems

You can never get too much of this. From the day a student walks in I talk about NATURAL WEAPONS, NATURAL DEFENSES, and NATURAL TARGETS. This is usually groin, throat, and eyes ... with a smattering of knees, nose, temple and neck thrown in. But I also make ensure that with the "common" name, I also use the anatomically correct name. They start learning this early through repitition and some of it sticks.

There is some actual discussion and application of opening meridians and nerve srikes or Dim Muk, but I prefer to keep it westernized and reference pressure points or nerve ganglia for my beginners, then cross reference as they gain experience. A lot of this is in conjunction with learning contact manipulations, controls, and releases.

By the way, on a funnier note ... I did start with a Gray's Anatomy coloring book ... no comments on staying inside the lines. I took a class, my ex-wife took more (she had 2 degrees and wanted to be a doctor), and we would run every other night and walk on off nights and review the area that either of us was working on at the time. The pounding of the feet must have pounded some of the knowledge into my head, as this was in the mid '80's and I have not lost much of it as you would think. Just don't ask me what I did yesterday and I am fine.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael Billings
UKS-Texas

 

[Nightingale]

I've never had to study anatomy/kinesiology in relation to martial arts. However, my minor in college was dance/kinesiology, and it is well worth knowing, both as a dancer and a martial artist. we learned which muscles moved what, how our muscles and nerves worked, and how our bones worked and moved and supported. we also learned about sports injuries and what to do about them, which ones are okay to train with, and which ones need to be rested.

the best thing that anatomy/kinesiology is that it let me better communicate with my doctor, because I not only knew what things are called, but I knew how certain injuries happen. being able to say "I hyperextended my right ankle on the medial side" helps my doctor a lot more than me saying "um... my ankle hurts." plus, it allowed me to be able to look at my own medical chart (if you ask, they have to show it to you) and understand what was written there, plus understand what the medical staff was talking about.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Are there any particular parts of the body that you find yourself targeting more often than not?
[/B]

In sparring, groin and solar plexus are both excellent targets that most people don't know how to cover up (especially the people who've come into kenpo from boxing and think that the only thing I'm going to shoot for is their chin )

In techniques, there's lots of yummy arteries and nerves in the neck, so I know that if you get a good strike off the either side, or the front or back it's going to do at least some pain or damage, but I don't have an extensive knowledge of it.

Apart from that, lots of strikes to the inside of the forearm in both techs and sparring because I know how effective it is, again, I don't know what exactly is under there that hurts so much though!

Ian.

 

[fanged_seamus]

Long before I discovered kenpo, I had a one-year course in human anatomy and physiology. Since I don't subscribe to the concepts of Chinese medicine (chi, meridian lines, etc.), I like to find more plausible explanations for the targets of strikes -- things like vulnerable nerves, tendons, veins/arteries, and muscle groups. The anatomy I've had has helped me to understand the targets pretty well.

However, where I find that anatomy has helped me most is in understanding the fundamentals of motion. Looking at bones and muscle groups as levers helps me to understand motion -- both in terms of my own and other people's. It's especially helpful when looking at things like arm bars, wrist locks, and other "contact manipulation" oriented material.

Oh -- I have to agree with Mr. Billings that "The Anatomy Coloring Book" is absolutely the BEST reference for looking at human anatomy. It was "required reading" for my class, and I still have mine, colored in and all.

Knowledge is never a bad thing -- always seek more!

Tad Finnegan

 

[Chiduce]

In white crane kenpo, anatomy theory studies start with the yellow belt ranks. The yin/yang theory of the external organs and their respective strength's and weaknesses are examined. By purple belt the students discover the internal organs in the fist, and their strength's and weaknesses. As the student progresses beyond purple belt he/she begins to experience body deformation and physical action dynamics in angular counter-striking in choking, and strangulation throwing. The green belt is then introduced to the anatomical deformation vector of the bodys' natural weapons, etc,. The 3rd through 1st brown belt ranks get the more indepth studies of the body's internal and external organs, examines elongation and fatigue studies, advanced vital point striking, rupturing of soft tissue targets, failure studies, concentrated vital point striking, internal organ rupture, shear plane stress in the anatomical body structure, section modulus of an anatomical region. The 1st black examines independent concentration studies of the art and the human body as a bio-molecular dissipative structure. So, basically the same thing as the other kenpo arts, just from a serious bio-molecular mechanical standpoint.
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[WilliamTLear]

What is an external organ? I am not familiar with this term as it relates to the human body.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear

 

[Nightingale]

Your skin is considered the largest organ in your body. its external. However, I'm not sure what theory he was referring to...?

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

What is an external organ? I am not familiar with this term as it relates to the human body.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear

I'am not going to answer that. It's a good joke though! Is not it sorta like a piano?
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[rmcrobertson]

"A bio-molecular dissipative structure," eh?

While I certainly respect this sort of approach to kenpo, and more generally to self-defense--I often feel that I just don't know enough about the physiological effects of what I'm doing--I also have to say that I don't agree with the idea that beginners need to know this stuff.

I guess I was just trained differently, always the fundamental source of our disagreements. But beyond the fact that I find this a bit jargon-y (and if I'm saying that, well...), I'm not sure I see how this helps somebody moving up the ranks work on the techniques, the form, on developing power, on improving their stances, on coordinating their movements, etc.

I'm also very dubious about the proliferation of secret and technical language in kenpo, whether it's "SL-4 tm," or anything else. I find a lot of it--and I add immediately that I don't know jack about White Crane kenpo--pseudo-scientific. More than that, I find a lot of it (I add again that I've no idea about W. Crane, just making a point) represents a commodification of knowledge: the more objectified secrets I have, the more I can sell 'em. And maybe most, I don't like it because it's mystifying, giving the students the impression that there are Big Mysteries out there. There aren't: there's just persistence, and hard work, and the acquisition of knowledge through decent teaching.

Seriously, I'm just trying to make a general point about language in kenpo. I have no idea about who mystifies or commodifies or anything else, and I suspect that I do these things too, from time to time.

Thanks: I find the discussion interesting.

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Chiduce

The yin/yang theory of the external organs and their respective strength's and weaknesses are examined. By purple belt the students discover the internal organs in the fist, and their strength's and weaknesses.

Are you talking about something like an Asian version of reflexology? Something like regions of the hand or body correlate with certain internal organs?


Tad Finnegan

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus



Are you talking about something like an Asian version of reflexology? Something like regions of the hand or body correlate with certain internal organs?


Tad Finnegan

You are on the right track here. If you have studied the Sun Lu Tang version of the of the internal organs in the fist. You find that they relate to the eight trigrams of the bagua. White Crane Kenpo is in no way fashion or form as complex as baguazhang. Yet, many current styles and the newer ones, such as White Crane Kenpo which is the nickname of Butokutsuru Ryu Kenpojutsu. This okinawan term translates as Virtuous Crane's Law Of The Dragon's Fist. The dragon being the culmination of knowledge of the ancient monks, sages, nuns, and suttas concerning the wisdom of buddha. It is a blending of the traditional with the non-traditional; a natural physical equilibrium constant of physical expressive acceptance against confrontation. By the way, i'am the founder of the White Crane Kenpo System in which i'am speaking. Anyway; Sun Lu Tang identifies the kidneys, heart, 1st to 7th vertebrae, right and left abdomen and adbomen (small intestine) as internal organs in the fist. These organs make up six of the eight trigrams of the bagua. Tai chi also uses this same understanding because the eight trigrams are derived from the yin/yang poles of the grand ultimate taiji. So, to keep from getting overly complex, it is very safe to assume that these 6 internal organs mentioned above were identified for the primary damage which could be done to them through being struck properly with one or a combination of the body's natural weapons. Each of these 6 internal organs are represented by a strong or weak yin trigram or a strong or weak yang trigram. So, this explains the body's internal organ weaknesses by exposing them as either very weak, weak, stronger than weak and stronger than all the others. This pairs the weak with stronger than weak on the yin pole and very weak with stronger than all others on the yang pole. Therefore according to Sun Lu Tang the weakest internal organ to strike would be around or at the left abdomen area which houses the colon ( large intestine and bowel area) which is where the spleen sits on top of the colon just under the left rib cage. A precise strike to this area would damage not only the colon, but possibly rupture the colon and damage the spleen at their point of flexture; or where the spleen and colon connect. This flexture sure enough has a shear plane! The yin/yang theory gets a little complex at times. If you are a little confused, please do not feel strange, it took me 8 solid months of study to grasp the theory alone , and another 3 months to figure out why i was doing it! I have supposedly just scratched the surface after 4 yrs. of study.
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[fanged_seamus]

Chiduce,

While I don't subscribe to your philosophy, I appreciate the explanation (even though I only understood about 1/100 of what you were saying). Thanks for the information!:asian:

Tad

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I'm not sure I see how this helps somebody moving up the ranks work on the techniques, the form, on developing power, on improving their stances, on coordinating their movements, etc. .......

just persistence, and hard work, and the acquisition of knowledge through decent teaching.

I agree with you completely. There are no secrets or magic, only knowledge and skills yet to be acquired. But you must admit in this manner of communication, terminology is all one has to express themselves. An over simplicfication could lead to misunderstandings and false impressions.

Unfortunately it also allows some to appear more knowledgeable and skilled than they really are. As Mr. Parker said, "If you can't blind them with science, dazzle them with ********." Walking and Talking ae not the same thing.

Only face time can separate the two.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo

How many out there have studied the anatomy? For those that have what have you found most interesting?

Beyond all the meridian information that exists, and that I hope to study one day, there are many anatomical areas that instructors use as focal points for strikes. So instead of saying hit GB 17 or whatever they will say strike the occipital(sp.) plate or whatever.

What are your thoughts on this? Are there any particular parts of the body that you find yourself targeting more often than not?

jb:asian:

Two of the most targeted areas on the anatomy in self-defense techniques, as you know, are the lower portion of the CV, and L-5. Both are majors to themselves and effective SUP's.

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by jbkenpo

How many out there have studied the anatomy? For those that have what have you found most interesting?


jb:asian:

I was a medic when in the army and went through the army's training for it (got EMT certified in the process) We did a lot of anatomy and functions, When going to college I took a a&p course also it was pretty interesting.

As far as targeting anatomy points or a favorite target to me I guess its whatever is open that fits the weapon and its path!

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by brianhunter



I was a medic when in the army and went through the army's training for it (got EMT certified in the process) We did a lot of anatomy and functions, When going to college I took a a&p course also it was pretty interesting.

As far as targeting anatomy points or a favorite target to me I guess its whatever is open that fits the weapon and its path!

Well you're right. But it's not as easy as it sounds. If it were, everybody would be doing it. I have a licensed acupuncturist, Dr. of Chiropractic Medicine, who is also degreed in Kinesiology who cannot accomplish it because his knowledge is virtually useless in a martial environment without knowledgeable instruction.

 

[Les]

Originally posted by brianhunter

As far as targeting anatomy points or a favorite target to me I guess its whatever is open that fits the weapon and its path!

The weapon and the path can be changed to fit the target, but I agree with this statement in principle.

What I frequently tell my students is to think T-N-T.

That stands for "Targets not Techniques"

Having said that, an understanding of anatomy will help to anticipate the effect/reaction that any srtike will cause.

Les

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Les




The weapon and the path can be changed to fit the target, but I agree with this statement in principle.

What I frequently tell my students is to think T-N-T.

That stands for "Targets not Techniques"

Having said that, an understanding of anatomy will help to anticipate the effect/reaction that any srtike will cause.

Les

I like that "TNT".... makes you think! I worded that wrong and you are correct the weapon can change to contour the target .

As to Doc's post, Nothings ever easy but ill keep trying and Ill never know half as much as my wife thinks I dont!