Kenpo differences - standardize or leave alone?

[Zeke]

:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Personally, I don't think there will be a "unified" type of committee. You know what's funny....I think Mr. Parker wanted it that way. I say this because he taught everyone around the world slightly different. Just look at Joe Palanzo compared to a Tom Kelly or Larry Tatum. Huk Planas to Doreen Cogliandro, or Diane Tanaka. They each have something to offer, and each is slightly different.

I think that this was done so that Mr. Parker could tell what part of the country or globe you came from. I oddly enough feel that he knew this would happen and for that in some peculiar way these differences would inevidibaly draw each of them closer together... :asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
I oddly enough feel that Mr. Parker knew that in some peculiar way these differences between individuals would inevidibaly draw each of them closer together.

In some cases it certainly has!

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Question,........

Since there are so many different versions of our System all over the world ...... i.e., Tracy's, Paul Mills, Speakman, Palanzo, Chap'el, Tatum, Kelly, LaBounty, White, Trejo, Planas, Conatser, Hancock, Wedlake, Hawkins, Hebler, and a ton of others.......

Do you think we should attempt to "standardize" "any or some" of the material such as the Basics, Terminology, Self Defense Techniques, Forms, and Sets or just leave it alone as it is?

:asian:

Standardize or leave alone. Leave alone or standardize. Neither, find who you like and hang with them... and who makes you better and hang with them!

:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Rainman



Standardize or leave alone. Leave alone or standardize. Neither, find who you like and hang with them... and who makes you better and hang with them!

:asian:

100% true, I like it.
Jason Farnsworth

 

[Goldendragon7]

The great voice form the Northwest...... always comes thru in the end!!

:asian:

 

[donald]

I know I weigh in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy late, but here is my 2 cents. Did'nt Mr.Parker say to leave the forms alone? I think that the forms/sets, and techniques should be standardized. If your not teaching the system that Mr.Parker Sr., laid out. You should'nt use his name. You could call it a system, based on the Epak system. The way it stands now is verrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy confusing. I believe some high ranking seniors have gone to just calling it kenpo. Even though they are mainly teaching Epak material. They like Mr.P. Sr., have opted to make it thier own. Always giving him his props when explaining thier method. Much like he did, with regard to Mr.Chow.
By GOD'S Grace,
Donald 1st John 1:9 :asian:

 

[Simon Curran]

I know I weigh in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy late, but here is my 2 cents. Did'nt Mr.Parker say to leave the forms alone? I think that the forms/sets, and techniques should be standardized. If your not teaching the system that Mr.Parker Sr., laid out. You should'nt use his name. You could call it a system, based on the Epak system. The way it stands now is verrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy confusing. I believe some high ranking seniors have gone to just calling it kenpo. Even though they are mainly teaching Epak material. They like Mr.P. Sr., have opted to make it thier own. Always giving him his props when explaining thier method. Much like he did, with regard to Mr.Chow.
By GOD'S Grace,
Donald 1st John 1:9 :asian:

Yeah I arrived late to the party as well, but I agree as regards the forms and sets, it would be nice to be able to work with whomever and at least the forms and sets would be uniform.
As regards Kenpo in general though, I think that we, as students, have the responsibilty to seek out the people with whom we wish to work as and when possible, and thus make our own interpretation of Kenpo based upon our own needs/desires for our Journey.

 

[JenniM]

As regards Kenpo in general though, I think that we, as students, have the responsibilty to seek out the people with whom we wish to work as and when possible, and thus make our own interpretation of Kenpo based upon our own needs/desires for our Journey.

Absolutely!! After all there is "effective", "more effective" and "MOST effective" especially with regard to basics and techniques. Having said that you need a standardized strong base from which to build upon as you continue your growth and kenpo journey. However, having said this I think that as long as you have individual instructors and students you will always have individual interpretation of what would be considered "Standardized" - just go along to a Kenpo competition where there are many different Kenpo organisations present and you will see the same form/set performed differently every time, albeit the differences may be very small - I think it is impossible for human beings to perform the same motion exactly the same - this is what makes us unique and interesting - so I think the word here is "Interpretation" of what SGM Parker originally taught, how his Instructors interpreted this and how they then passed this on to their students within their respective organisations - Kenpo is always evolving I believe - certainly for myself now beginning to work on SL4 concepts under the Martial Science University and Dr Chapel/Mr Mills I feel closer to the source, SGM Parker than ever before but standardized hmmmmmm.... Well that's my two pennies worth!!

 

[Simon Curran]

Absolutely!! After all there is "effective", "more effective" and "MOST effective" especially with regard to basics and techniques. Having said that you need a standardized strong base from which to build upon as you continue your growth and kenpo journey. However, having said this I think that as long as you have individual instructors and students you will always have individual interpretation of what would be considered "Standardized" - just go along to a Kenpo competition where there are many different Kenpo organisations present and you will see the same form/set performed differently every time, albeit the differences may be very small - I think it is impossible for human beings to perform the same motion exactly the same - this is what makes us unique and interesting - so I think the word here is "Interpretation" of what SGM Parker originally taught, how his Instructors interpreted this and how they then passed this on to their students within their respective organisations - Kenpo is always evolving I believe - certainly for myself now beginning to work on SL4 concepts under the Martial Science University and Dr Chapel/Mr Mills I feel closer to the source, SGM Parker than ever before but standardized hmmmmmm.... Well that's my two pennies worth!!

That's pretty much what I meant to say too ma'am, I just feel as regards forms and sets, that we should try to replicate (as close as we can) what it was Mr Parker originally wanted them to be, I'm pretty sure that the great man had a rhyme and reason as to why they were to be performed in a specific manner, allbeit misunderstood by the most of us...

 

[JenniM]

That's pretty much what I meant to say too ma'am, I just feel as regards forms and sets, that we should try to replicate (as close as we can) what it was Mr Parker originally wanted them to be, I'm pretty sure that the great man had a rhyme and reason as to why they were to be performed in a specific manner, allbeit misunderstood by the most of us...

Agreed!

 

[kenposikh]

Coming from the IT world as I do standardisation is a wonderful thing but as is found in the IT world the problem is there are always groups or organisations who want something a little more and slightly different to the standard. People are people and they will always conflict with each other.

KIRCODUMANTOPY

 

[Doc]

Ed Parker Jr at a seminar said (in so many words) that most
went to him after getting their b.b. through someone else ...
they'd say to SGM Parker 'how do you do Thundering Hammers?'.
He'd reply with, "how do YOU do Thundering Hammers?" because
everyone was different. And then he'd tell them how BEST to do
it given how they moved, their body style, their own arrogance,
and what not being a factor. Then they'd all go away thinking
that it was the ONLY way that tech/set/form should be done,
when what it actually was, was customized. That being the case,
it's possible that the CORE might vary from instructor to instructor.
And if THIS is the case, then it won't be too long before the
variants in the core are even wider.

Edmund's understanding is quite correct and on the money, and remember he was born into the "motion era" of his Fathers vast work so his perspective is not tainted by previous material. His statements support what I have always said about motion-based kenpo. Parker not only didn't teach "basics," he never ever standardized techniques, and instead put forth "ideas" through his ground breaking "manuals."

Everyone seems to agree that the basics should be the same. However, because Mr. Parker never taught consistent basics to these people, standardization beyond conceptual ideas he ultimately published in his Infinite Insights and Sophisticated Basics Series, are not present in the motion based approach by HIS DESIGN. Most of his black belts did come from other interpretations and styles so they brought their personal understanding of basics with them, as the foundation for their teaching.

Further, more, even those that were a part of Kenpo before the commercial motion system was introduced, were also subject to the same problem because Parker himself was in transition, and his own understanding of "basics" was in a state of flux.

The basics he brought to the mainland and taught when he was in college as a brown belt, had changed when he came back as a black belt after leaving military service. Then after a little over a year as a black belt in Pasadena, they changed again when he switched examination and study to the very strict Chinese Arts.

Then, in the beginning of his transition to his personal evolving "American-Kenpo," his basics began to change as well. A look at the "Basics Booklet" Parker published early on had "Short Form One," and Parker demonstrated "basic blocks" himself. Later on, he looked at his own execution in that book and said, "Horrible." and never ever demonstrated basics again.

Parker continued to grow until he passed away and his understanding of correct body mechanics changed dramatically over time. However, Parker NEVER standardized basics with any GROUP of his black belts from any era, and specifically not ever with motion-kenpo. Motion-Kenpo philosophically does not allow for standardized basic application. To do so would be contrary to the basic design of the material. What Parker did attempt to do before he passed with the few he was teaching in Motion-Kenpo, was standardize the UNDERSTANDING of TECHNIQUES, but never the specific execution. The over-riding theme of Motion-Kenpo has, and has ALWAYS been; "Make it work for you."

Parker's commercial edict of "Make the art fit you, not you fit the art." completely dominates his commercial product. While this is actually correct of all arts and their interpretation at some point in time, Parker moved this idea from later in your years of training to the beginning of your training to make it commercially viable. Brilliant and it worked. Nevertheless, everyone has to understand, as long as your "basics" are based on subjective and personal preferences of "motion" and aesthetics, they will continue to be impossible to standardize.

To make that leap, (which more and more now seem willing to do), you must leave subjective applications behind and move to the anatomical methodology, which is dictated by the science of biomechanics. This is the method used by pro sports where the MOST effective execution dominates. Only then will standardization take place, because it is not a person who decides, but the science itself, and that can be physically challenged to prove or disprove efficacy like any other true scientific model. However, even under this methodology instructors are free to interpret techniques to their own desire and "shape" their training curriculum. The difference is, you still have to stay within most effective biomechanical function. After all, how could you justify doing something one way, when there is a more physically effective way? The other thing is, you will have to teach all students the same material in the beginning and the "shaping" and "tailoring" of technique for personal preferences will come much later in a students journey.

So yes, everyone is "different" in their understanding of "basics" but no one is right or wrong within the context of their own teaching, beyond what works for their students. "Right or wrong" however can and will be determined when you switch to a true science based model. The question is, if you want to make the switch, can you handle the idea of simply being "wrong" no matter how many stripes you have. If not, keep doing what you're doing, and have fun doing it. However, if you can handle it, there is a vast new world of material out there that I think a lot of you have been seeking. Some without egos, have set their stripes aside, and have already started. I had to do the same.

 

[Doc]

Is Ron Chapel's SL-4 able to be reconciled with Paul Mills AKKI techniques? I don't know. -Michael
UKS-Texas

I know your question was hypothetical, but I'll answer it.....

Paul teaches what he does based on personal preferences and the understanding he has for, and his talent in his art. I too am driven by my teachings and preferences as well, but the base knowledge is driven by the science of biomechnics and their applications. The science is the authority, not me. If the science says its wrong, I must change. If the science gives me a choice between one way or another, then and only then do I get to choose. I also get to choose how I convey that information, and what area I would like to focus on. This is the old Chinese way, and that is what Parker taught me to do. Jimmy Woo once said, "Its all the same, (the foundation) the only difference is what you choose to focus on." Once physical foundations are learned, there is plenty of room for personal "flavor." I suspect some of my students will shape what they teach when I'm gone to what they prefer, but as long as it is biomechnically correct, they will be doing what I taught them and for that they will never ever be wrong.

 

[Michael Billings]

I know your question was hypothetical, but I'll answer it.....

Paul teaches what he does based on personal preferences and the understanding he has for, and his talent in his art. I too am driven by my teachings and preferences as well, but the base knowledge is driven by the science of biomechnics and their applications. The science is the authority, not me. If the science says its wrong, I must change. If the science gives me a choice between one way or another, then and only then do I get to choose. I also get to choose how I convey that information, and what area I would like to focus on. This is the old Chinese way, and that is what Parker taught me to do. Jimmy Woo once said, "Its all the same, (the foundation) the only difference is what you choose to focus on." Once physical foundations are learned, there is plenty of room for personal "flavor." I suspect some of my students will shape what they teach when I'm gone to what they prefer, but as long as it is biomechnically correct, they will be doing what I taught them and for that they will never ever be wrong.

Respectfully, I wrote that a lifetime ago ... The date was 07-25-2002, 05:04 PM and an Association ago also. I do appreciate the reply, but had to re-read the thread. My question was rhetorical, whereas your answer is specific and execution-based. The point being that it was not merely the lack of standardization, but as you note, "when" the black belts learned their material, and how can they possibly reconcile this?

None-thee-less I appreciate the answer as always.

Keepin' it Kenpo,
-Michael

 

[dubljay]

I think the differences should be left alone to see where they go. Look at the variety of places Kenpo has come to. Just by looking at the seniors on this board each have their little niche, an area of expertise that help make all of us just a bit better kenpo.

Just my humble opinion

-Josh

 

[Goldendragon7]

Well, if everyone all wore levis, grey shirts and drove blue cars life would be boring wouldn't it. So the spice of life is in our ability of choice and preference. If you get tired of Mexican food then try Chinese, if you don't know what you are eating, then watch tv........

 

[Simon Curran]

Well, if everyone all wore levis, grey shirts and drove blue cars life would be boring wouldn't it. So the spice of life is in our ability of choice and preference. If you get tired of Mexican food then try Chinese, if you don't know what you are eating, then watch tv........

Ouch, my head, it's too early in the morning for philosophy and metaphors...

 

[Goldendragon7]

Ouch, my head, it's too early in the morning for philosophy and metaphors...

That was a little to deep was it?


Well, you know what I always say........

You can lead a horse to water....
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but you can't smear cake on his lips!!

:ultracool

 

[MA-Caver]

I personally would love to see a standardization. Unfortunately, there are too many egos out there for it to happen. Too many people saying "My way is right, yours is junk." If every one could agree on one dictionary, then maybe we could agree on one set of encyclopedias. Yes, I know they are out there.

Exactly what I was thinking. I mean by who's standards are you going to ...umm, standardize Kenpo?
Just like with JKD which way is the right way. Or the other arts?
There are dozens of people coming up with their own ways of doing things.

IMO... if it works use it. It doesn't really matter who's right or wrong as long as the method is effective in ending the fight.