Kenpo differences - standardize or leave alone?

[Goldendragon7]

Question,........

Since there are so many different versions of our System all over the world ...... i.e., Tracy's, Paul Mills, Speakman, Palanzo, Chap'el, Tatum, Kelly, LaBounty, White, Trejo, Planas, Conatser, Hancock, Wedlake, Hawkins, Hebler, and a ton of others.......

Do you think we should attempt to "standardize" "any or some" of the material such as the Basics, Terminology, Self Defense Techniques, Forms, and Sets or just leave it alone as it is?

:asian:

 

[satans.barber]

What would we have to talk about if we all did everything the same?

I say the differences are a good thing (in most cases), especially when coming up with new stuff as we have a broader base to work from.

Ian.

 

[Sandor]

Tough question.

I think that as close to 'standardization' as we can hope for would be the utilization of the II books and tech manuals. I dunno about some of the offshoots though as some split off well before the II books were published. For them, with out a lot of serious effort on thier behalf it won't happen. Seeing how lazy we all can be about that kind of thing I would say the idea is utopian.

Best we could hope for would be that we all speak the same language for terms and 'code' words (ala the 'language which we speak'). At least that would facilitate communication between the various branches without a lot of hair pulling...

Being the survivor of a few flavors of the system myself(and switching the school a couple of times as well) I would say folks are better off just adding to what they know versus sweeping changes across student bases.

Peace,
Sandor

 

[kenpo3631]

Well GD I think you have a valid point here. However I kind of relate the "families" (goombah flair ) to military branches.

In the Army world wide an E-5 is a Sergeant, it's the same in the USMC.

The Navy has chiefs and the USAF have Tech Sergeants.

My point is that they are all E-5's, their base pay is the same!

In kenpo you have the same thing. Whom ever you train with, that is if they are teaching the base system as outlined by Mr. Parker, we are generally all on the same page. Sure terminology might differ slightly. Kinda like the kitchen - Navy =galley Army=Chow Hall etc. But we all know what it means, especially if we are hungry!

For those offshoots like the AKKI guys and the IKCA guys learning Kenpo with the association founders own signature flair, well that's like talking to the British Army...lol.

The point is, so long as we all understand the rules and principles and apply them to our base, I'd say we will be as standardized as we can be.:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Question,........

Since there are so many different versions of our System all over the world ...... i.e., Tracy's, Paul Mills, Speakman, Palanzo, Chap'el, Tatum, Kelly, LaBounty, White, Trejo, Planas, Conatser, Hancock, Wedlake, Hawkins, Hebler, and a ton of others.......

Do you think we should attempt to "standardize" "any or some" of the material such as the Basics, Terminology, Self Defense Techniques, Forms, and Sets or just leave it alone as it is?

:asian:

How about a "best practices" approach? Take the best from all to make one, of course that would require sharing and working together.

The problem with all of this is that people don't necesarily want to work together. I have always heard Kenpo instructors say, "I don't really care what XXXX is doing, I'm only interested in my thing" (i.e. My Journey).

The one thing I would agree on is "standardizing basics". I think a lot has been gained and lost from people doing private garage instruction. People don't do the thousands of inward, upward, downward blocks like we used to back in the day. Part of it might be that type of training is more conducive to large groups, but when you don't do it, you end up with weak movements. I could be completely off base.

I don't know that the techs could be standardized anymore. There are so many variations and derivatives, but we could have more intra-organizational camps to share information.

It would be great to have a camp and spend all day for 2 or 3 days just looking at all the techs up to (your rank) and seeing the variations and logic behind them. After your level has passed there could be breakout seminars for each level to learn something else.

Also get some 1st-3rd degree blacks teaching at these events so we can see the continuing threads of the system.... most of them need the practice anyway (at least from what I've been to exposed).

Just think, if someone (like you) would put out a video on how to do basics, how to start class, different variations of drills, etc... they would make a killing. Many of us haven't been exposed to things that SGM Parker taught different Seniors it would be great to have access to that. I guess that's what EPjr is doing.

But I know for many presentation is everything and they want to do a hollywood production instead of affordable basic study guides.

Also if a person that does tours regularly (like Huk Planas) had a guy travel around with him and video tape his seminars and then offered those on the net...that person would also make a killing.

just my thoughs, jb

 

[tarabos]

how could it be done? who would be the ones to standardize it? i'm sure there's a lot of people who would like to put there two cents into the standardization pot.

i think we have a good enough standard already. it's the principles and concepts left to us by Ed Parker, combined with the laws of physics and body dynamics.

just sounds a little too much like a pipe dream. if there is a standard that needs to be set, it's quality over quantity. don't give out belts like candy. do what you can to promote kenpo in your own way. stuff like that....

 

[Seig]

I personally would love to see a standardization. Unfortunately, there are too many egos out there for it to happen. Too many people saying "My way is right, yours is junk." If every one could agree on one dictionary, then maybe we could agree on one set of encyclopedias. Yes, I know they are out there.

 

[Goldendragon7]

hee hee
:rofl:

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Question,........


Do you think we should attempt to "standardize" "any or some" of the material such as the Basics, Terminology, Self Defense Techniques, Forms, and Sets or just leave it alone as it is?

:asian:

I think most of the material is the same from the guys who really know what they are doing, for instance Mr.C's and Tom Kellys curriculum are different but they are very, very, close. I think the best thing for Kenpo would be for everyone to agree to disagree and be happy we are all in it for the art reguardless of how we conduct it.

 

[Kirk]

I think without standardizing, it won't take long before there are
drastic variations in the art. It would put further distance
between the brotherhood IMO. Soon you wouldn't want to
attend a seminar from someone outside your lineage because
the differences will become so drastic! I think there should be a
long discussion over many adult beverages by those taught by
Mr Parker. And they should accept the fact that things were
taught to them each in a different way, and rejoice in it. These
guys are the current fathers of our system, and given the
differences, most seniors will say "I disagree" with so-and-so,
yet none say "so-and-so"is a dumbass" (for the most part).

What I'm getting at is the seniors right now, are all VERY
knowledgeable in martial arts. I think it is within all of their
abilities to 1) set differences aside 2) set egos aside and 3)
agree on a LOT of things regarding the basics of our common
system. Most will say I'm in a pipe dream, but I still think that
it IS possible. What has to be found is the circumstances that
will MAKE IT possible. Kenpo will survive longer with a united
front, and a strong brotherhood can exist!


To steal (and alter) from Dr. Martin Luther King:

Let kenpo ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let kenpo
ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let kenpo
ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let kenpo ring
from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let
kenpo ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let kenpo ring from
Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let kenpo ring from every hill
and every molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let
kenpo ring.

When we let kenpo ring, when we let it ring from every village
and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able
to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and
white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be
able to join hands in kenpo and sing, "Free at last! free at last!
thank God Almighty, free at last!"

:soapbox:


Please note that I in no way mean to "make fun" of Dr King's
message in his famous speech. The message has a truth to it
that hopefully we as a society will one day accomplish. To read
the original words of Dr King's speech in it's entirety, please click here.
Read more about Dr Martin Luther King in your local library.

 

[kenpo3631]

From what I've seen, the basics in most schools are the same.

I think the forms issues are a product of studios in locations where Senior instructors are hard to come by or the studios' head instructor just can't afford to travel to get the info or they are bound and (blinded) by their association.

Sets...well sets are up to the instructors if they want to teach them or not. Most will agree that they are just exercise to work certain aspects of the art "Appendices of Motion".

SO to have a "Standardization Board" might get to be a little hairy. Who would be on it? The most senior Parker black belts?

Okay..so we'll have Sullivan, Hebler, LaBounty, White, who else?

If we have them you'll have the argument that Hebler doesn't teach the "new" stuff and that Sullivan "doesn't follow the web of knowledge as it is written". Then you will have those that say "I was there training with Mr. Parker just before he died...I have the newest material changes."

Someone posted it before about egos. To many might get in the way of a successful "Standardization Board".

I look at it this way, each of the seniors have something to offer. If your basics are strong the rest is cake. Take it all in learn as much as you can. :asian:

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Question,........

Do you think we should attempt to "standardize" "any or some" of the material such as the Basics, Terminology, Self Defense Techniques, Forms, and Sets or just leave it alone as it is?

:asian:

If there were a way to standardize the basics and terminology, I'd be all for it. In general, terminology seems pretty uniform (with a few exceptions like "Reverse Marriage of Gravity"), but I haven't been exposed to much outside of my organization. The basics, as the building blocks and foundation of all kenpo, should also be standard, IMO.

However, since techniques, forms, and sets are more "personal" displays of motion, I don't like the idea of standardizing there. If you want to evaluate how the techniques or forms of two organizations compare, look to the fundamentals -- strong stances, clean motion, good basics.

Diversity can be good, so long as everyone holds the same fundamental building blocks.

Tad

 

[Rob_Broad]

A little over a year ago I jokingly created an organization which I quickly dismantled called the Kenpo Wh****( rhymes with doors). It wasn't meant to be derogatory to anyone. I set it up for people like myself who are tired of the egos and and the BS that seems to go hand in hand with most associations. It was set up for people like myself who attend seminars to see instructors we want to learn from regardless of their affiliation, and to learn the material we want to learn. I was proud of the fact that I did not follow any organizations mandate blindly, I had done that in the past and didn't even get a kiss goodnight.

A standardization committee or board would have to be able to put all politics a side and realy think about what would be best for the entire kenpo community, not their agenda. I would love to see the knowledge free flowing, but unless people learn to check their egos at the door it will never happen.

 

[headkick]

Probably to some degree, yes. Will it be? Probably not. I think one good thing is people from different organizations to get together on a regular basis to share ideas. If nothing else, you can see what you don't like. I think Mr. Speakman tries to do that with his camps. You were in Vegas this year, weren't you Mr. C? What was that punchline again?

 

[kenpo3631]

Egos, egos everywhere, we need a psychiatric shrink...:rofl:
(To the tune of water, water, everywhere but not a drop to drink...)

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

From what I've seen, the basics in most schools are the same.

I think the forms issues are a product of studios in locations where Senior instructors are hard to come by or the studios' head instructor just can't afford to travel to get the info or they are bound and (blinded) by their association.

I have been around the block a few times so to speak, and know for a fact that there are definate differences in the way that ALL of the Senior Instructors I have trained with do the forms. Some call them signature moves, never the less, the differences ARE there, and they all claim to be the right or best way.

Hasta,
Billy Lear
United Kenpo Systems

 

[kenpo3631]

Some call them signature moves, never the less, the differences ARE there, and they all claim to be the right or best way.

I have seen some do that, however the basic form is the same. They follow the pattern, "most" of the methods of execution are right on. Yes, they may add, like Skip Hancock adds shuffles with Short Form #1. The explanations of how they came to that conclusion may be different, but for the most part they are asthetically the same.

Most of the time when you ask kenpo practitioners how come they do the form that way, they will say..."that's the way my instructor learned it." No explanations other than that. Like no one bothered to question the instructor?!? Or "I know how it goes, but I don't know what its called." What's up with that?!?

Anyway that's allot of what we hear in the East... Unlike you Cali folks... It is getting better though. Between Huk, Frank, Lee, and Paul Mills, things are getting better ...

Oh yeah Dennis too...:rofl:

 

[WilliamTLear]

Paul Mills isn't working toward standardization with people outside of his association. He is infact changing quite a bit from everything I've seen.

Hasta,
Billy Lear
United Kenpo Systems :asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

You're right!

He IS standardizing his own though...i.e. AKKI...

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

You're right!

He IS standardizing his own though...i.e. AKKI...

I thought we were writing about standardization beyond the borders of association, where did we loose each other?

Sincerely,
Crazy Billy
United Kenpo Systems :shrug: