kata?

Discussion in 'Beginners Corner' started by senseiblackbelt, May 26, 2016.

  1. UqaabKamikaze

    UqaabKamikaze Orange Belt

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    Kata, as I read and heard, holds secret knowledge of vital point which were not taught directly but in disguised manner.
    To other people it was just a series of movement but to a knowing person it was a complete guide to striking vital points with chronological order.
    It is like not teaching hit this point and then that but to teach movements which in themselves hold information to where to strike and how.

    Sent from my Karbonn A2+ using Tapatalk
     
  2. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    The amount of pages shows how meaningful kata are, and depending on the style and individual movements, they can be used for training in many different ways. That is the beauty of it and the more you learn and practice them, the more meaningful they become.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Or how cantankerous we are as a group. It's a toss-up.
     
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  4. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Non sequitur. The only conclusion which can be drawn is that there is no consensus on the purpose of kata. You can posit, if you like, the position that it also indicates that kata is "important" but, given the fact that humans in general, and MT in particular, are contentious and like to argue, I think the burden of proof will be difficult to meet to show that the lack of consensus is because of the relative importance instead of simply a lack of agreement. Your argument is doublely difficult due to the fact that there have been some posters in this thread who have argued that kata are, in fact, completely irrelevant and, therefore, completely unimportant.

    Good luck.
     
  5. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    Maybe it's just us liking to disagree over and over, but in my opinion the purpose of kata varies depending on the style you practice, and each individual kata you practice. And since pretty much everyone here is of a different style or lineage, and everyone practices different kata, everyone has a different opinion on the purpose of kata.
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Which may have been why I wrote, "9 pages and people still can't agree on exactly what kata are or what they're good for..." A statement which, if you'll recall, you disagreed with.

    Except for those people who do not practice kata at all and hold that it is a waste of time.
     
  7. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    Did I? I don't ever saying the words "I don't agree with you" or any connotation of those words. I am merely pointing out that every person here will have a slightly different interpretation of the purpose of kata because of the huge variety of styles represented on this forum. To me, this shows how important and multifaceted the forms are as they can be used in so many different ways to train. And quite frankly, we could go on like this for another 100 pages and nobody can be proven right or wrong, because the forms are understood and used in a different way by each person.

    This is one of the reasons why I love training the Martial Arts, because it gives each person the opportunity to find their own path and make the style they choose their own, to train and fight the way they want. It is a beautiful thing indeed.
     
  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    kata?

    Slightly different? Sheesh! There are more differing opinions than there are Power Rangers!

    Then make your case. Be sure to account for those screwball MMA types who don't think kata have any value.

    "9 pages and people still can't agree on exactly what kata are or what they're good for..."
     
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  9. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    Well now you are sounding like a broken record, so forgive me if I refrain from following your lead by repeating myself. If you can't even be bothered to read my posts then don't bother replying to them.
     
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  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    There once was a congregation who hired a pulpit preacher. His first Sunday he delivered an inspiring sermon to much nodding of heads and punctuated with frequent and hearty "Amen Preacher!" interjections. The congregants shook his hand at the door and went away eager to hear next Sunday's sermon. To their surprise, next Sunday the preacher delivered the exact same sermon. While there were a few polite "Amen's" most congregants assumed that their new preacher had accidentally grabbed last week's sermon instead of the new sermon he had prepared for this week and went away eager to hear the sermon on the following Sunday. When the following Sunday at last arrived, the congregants were shocked to hear exactly the same sermon delivered yet again. Appalled, the church leadership took their new preacher aside and asked him to engage his creative juices and deliver a new sermon. The preacher looked at them sternly and said, "When you learn this lesson, I'll move on to the next one."
     
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  11. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    You are far too full of yourself, to imply that your words are the absolute and only truth, and that by repeating yourself over and over I will eventually kneel before you and praise your wisdom. If there is one thing this thread has taught me it's that there is not one path, or 2 or 100 paths, but an unlimited number to choose from. You have said that none of us can agree on the purpose of kata, and I believe the reason for that is because the purpose is different for each person. You ask for evidence of this and the proof is in this entire thread. Nearly every person has a different opinion on kata, and all are valid in their own way.
     
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    "When you learn this lesson, I'll move on to the next one."

    That's a canned platitude not what this thread "taught" you.
     
  13. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    Are you this much of an ******* in real life or just online? Let me make one thing very clear to you since you seem rather dense in the head: I am not your student and I have nothing to learn from you. If you think I'll automatically start respecting a jumped up parrot like yourself then you have another thing coming. Being an "advisor" on here doesn't give you the right to down-talk and patronize everyone who expresses an opinion different to yours.
     
  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Kata is a training tool. :)
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, Kirk started out in a fairly conversational tone. Your initial disagreement (and, yes, you did disagree with him - the actual words "I disagree" aren't necessary to establish that) was genial enough and his reply was a reasonable challenge to your stated view, including a few points supporting his own. You were the first to get upset in this exchange (apparently because Kirk quoted himself to make the point that you said something roughly equivalent to what he originally said).

    You're getting very worked up - if the tone of your words here are any indicator - about someone standing by his point, then making a fairly humorous point about repetition. His tone was genial until yours wasn't. This is a discussion board. People here disagree, sometimes vehemently. Sometimes we even enjoy the argument.
     
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  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I disagree. :p
     
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  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Kata is a teaching/learning tool. It "records" information for your MA system.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I can't speak for your kata. But mine does more than that.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If your kata records "front kick, straight punch", when you "train", you should not only train 'front kick, straight punch", you should also train:

    - front kick, hook punch,
    - front kick, uppercut,
    - roundhouse kick, straight punch,
    - roundhouse kick, hook punch,
    - roundhouse kick, uppercut,
    - side kick, ...
    - ...
    - hook kick, ...
    - ...

    Not only you can learn "front kick, straight punch" from your kata, you also learn the principle "how to use a kick to set up a punch". IMO, that's more important.

    If there are M number of kicks, N number of punches, the maximum combination of kick, punch combo can be M x N. Some combination may not make sense. The teacher will not show his student all those detail. It will be up to the individual student to figure those out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't really understand what you are telling me.

    I will say this: my forms give examples of what is possible, but these examples are not sacred curriculum. There is no requirement that a student be able to us all movements within a form in real fighting. But those movements in the form give you ideas to chose from and develop your application, or give you insights to develop your own ideas and solutions.

    Otherwise, the forms are a way of reinforcing the fundamental principles with a wide variety of movement and technique.

    The real curriculum is stancework, and footwork and the various punches and kicks. Forms are optional, but useful as a way to drill principles and techniques. But forms are not a catalogue of the techniques of the system.

    Your own mileage may vary.
     

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