Karate is kata, kata is karate

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bill Mattocks, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Ok, so a possible tier 1 from that spec for the knife hand block in question...

    The lead hand is blocking* a punch or knife hand strike with a knife hand.

    The reaction (off) hand is adopting a guarding position of the mid section.



    Now that's one reason 'we' call it a knife hand guarding block - close the hands and move the arms 4-6" and you've got a forearm guarding block.

    *(I use the term blocking, but redirection is more accurate)
     
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  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    You asked previously how patterns were trained for me - if this quote is an example of what you mean then I can now answer I believe.

    I obviously can't speak to the entire ITF(s), but my experience is more like:

    "Perform knife hand guarding block, chamber both hands closed over shoulder and swing body into position, opening hands during move. Finish with lead hand extended and reaction hand palm up by solar plexus. This move is to block an attack from the front/side while guarding the solar plexus with the reaction hand, or as a stance providing a medium range guard to the front and short range to the mid section."


    Later, it's encouraged to utilise the move in 3, 2 and 1 step "semi free" sparring as described, leading from or into other techniques - from side kick as a landing position in a guard, or leading into a fingertip thrust (spearhand?) with the former reaction hand for example.

    Later still and more optionally, see what you can do with it in normal free sparring. The knife hand action is difficult to truly assess due to the gloves, but the target area is different than using a fist or forearm so it does translate somewhat. Grabs, throws etc. aren't allowed under the sparring rules, so...

    Then totally optionally (but certainly not discouraged) play around with it in "self defence" which isn't subject to the sparring ruleset. See if it works as a setup to a grab, or a restraint, or whatever.
     
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  3. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I never even suggested that you ditch your current training, just that you seek to supplement it.

    You are doing a bit of that here, but refusing to look at a book based on it being targeted at ITF and therefore "outside the scope of your training" is the sticking point for me (I don't mean that particular $200 book, I wouldn't spend that much ;))

    Now, if the training model that you stated and I quoted in my previous post is how you do all your form training, I think it's a shame really.

    Maybe it's a class size Vs time constraint issue, maybe it's that your instructor was taught in the same way, maybe it's endemic to KKW teaching - that I don't know.

    If you really are lacking those basic explanations for moves in your forms, start a thread and alert me (or link to existing), or send me a pm - I personally think there's a vanishingly small amount in any of the ITF patterns that doesn't have a surface (and usually deeper) application and as I said, I gather the kkw use very similar techniques.

    I'm more than happy to share what I've been taught or discovered - I just think it's something that should be a part of the normal training.
     
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  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    This is quite apt - it's taken an argument (enthusiastic discussion ;)) for me to understand the questions.
     
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  5. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I was simplifying because that's what I thought you wanted. I've expanded further above...

    But one little bit that I forgot about that I'll add now.

    At every stage, each pattern, we'll do a partner drill with it - one person performs the pattern, the other person moves around them with a pad and sometimes a strike stick.

    This way, the basic application of every move is demonstrated personally.
     
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  6. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I have to be honest - this is exactly what it's looked like to me too.

    I do.

    If you simply think "that's wrong" and dismiss it, then yes it's useless.

    But, if you approach it differently you can get a lot from an answer you think is wrong.

    Look at why you think it's wrong, discuss it with yourself and others as to the reasons for it's wrongness. Discuss it with the person who said it, tell them why you think their answer is wrong and see how they defend their answer. Use your opinion to challenge theirs and let them do the same to you.


    Years ago this was the foremost method of debate - posit disagreement and work to reach a conclusion. Sometimes both parties end up still thinking the other is wrong but it's made them both think about how and why they reached their own viewpoint.

    Nowadays of course, with the snowflake revolution, it's a form of bullying to voice a disagreement or tell someone you think they're wrong because you might cause a booboo to their delicate feels - now all you're supposed to do is state your position and leave it.

    There is no educational value in that.
     
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  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    This was my initial assumption 5 years ago when I first asked the question. However, in analyzing all of the applications I was taught, I had an issue with the palm being up, because we never were taught any applications from that position. A lot of people took exception with me asking questions about that particular detail...

    Think about this for a moment. Seriously, think about it from my perspective. This is what I go through trying to get answers, even to questions I didn't ask. When people post something I don't understand, sometimes it's like pulling teeth trying to get the message they wanted me to hear.

    I have to wonder how this works with some of the flashier moves in the more advanced forms. Or do you simply not have those flashy moves?

    I believe this is what I am doing. I provide my evidence, experience, and logic for the reasons I have my conclusions, and I ask others to do the same. I try and provide different reasoning if what I provided at first was not sufficient to explain my position or convince the other person of my position. When people give me their evidence, experience, and logic, I listen to it and respond to it. It's just a lot of people give me a talking-down-to in place of that evidence.
     
  8. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Which flashy moves?

    Obviously it doesn't work well with slow motion stuff (but for purpose those can be done 'normal' speed) and there are moves that are superficially intended as more of an intermediary step than a direct application thing, but there's not much I've seen that can't be applied with this.
     
  9. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    In the KKW forms, there are a lot of flashy techniques that look cool, but I couldn't see being used in a fight in the way they're presented in the forms. The best 3 forms I can think of as an example for this are:
    • Taegeuk Chil Jang (#7)
    • Taegeuk Pal Jang (#8)
    • Keumgang
    In Taegeuk 7, there are scissor blocks - down block with one hand, outside block with the other. Now, I can find plenty of those Tier 2 applications for this criss-cross motion (such as setting up a Z-lock or pulling down the guard and doing a backfist), but the only Tier 1 application I can think of (direct application of the movement as a block) is that you are blocking a low strike on one side and a mid-level strike on the other. And also, I've yet to find videos or demonstrations of KKW practitioners doing this Tier 2 or Tier 3 analysis...although that book hasn't arrived yet.

    In Taegeuk 8, there is a similar motion - a down block with one hand, and high block with the other. As with the above, there are numerous Tier 2 and Tier 3 applications I can draw, including a stretching lock or a throw. I can also see it similar to a sword guard position we recently learned in our sword forms. But the most direct application of the block that I can see, is I have someone in front of me that is kicking me, and someone behind me or to my side that is striking my head, and i am blocking both techniques. This Tier 1 application looks cool in demonstrations, but is much less practical than simply using footwork to keep both opponents in front of me so I can actually see them.

    Kaumgang has a lot of these blocks. The low/high block combo in crane stance (which makes it even more wonky), double outside-block (very easy grappling implications, but appears to be blocking attacks from both sides in the Tier 1 application), and a double low block to either side (which, I'll be honest, I haven't looked at as much and don't have much being the Tier 0 movement on this one).

    This is why my search for answers has led me to "there's no Tier 1 application."
    And why, at least in my opinion based on my research into these forms, the KKW curriculum does not account for the Tier 2 or Tier 3 applications, either.

    Maybe I should at least make the distinction that it's a KKW problem, and not a TKD problem. But my research does lead me to believe that this is a problem endemic to KKW, and not just a local issue.
     
  10. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    As I said, I see it as a simple mechanical placement issue when the guarding block is taken as a sole entity - it's just the best position to end up in given the route taken to get there rather than a directly applicable 'hand' in itself.

    Part of this is down to the way you've asked questions, and part is down to the tone of the initial responses you give.

    Then another part (as brilliantly demonstrated by me) is that the other person just doesn't understand your context...

    Sometimes the talking down to you is because, given your rank, it's something that you 'should' know or 'should' be able to figure out yourself without asking.

    And again, the implied tone of your responses - this is something difficult to convey in this format - face to face you'd be far less likely to come up against these issues (same for above too, face to face it's easier to ask a question and discuss an answer).

    Of course, some of the talking down will be a shield based on a person not actually knowing why they believe what they believe - they formed (or got told) an opinion and take offence when it gets challenged. Unfortunately, there's no fix for that...
     
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  11. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I'll have to look at those if I can find video and if I can draw a parallel I'll get back to you at some point.
     
  12. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Moves 13-16(ish)?
     
  13. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Yeah, the last part that's going forward.

    (Luckily, the Taegeuks and Yudanja are standardized enough that if you find a video of it, you found the video of it).
     
  14. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Moves 8+10(ish)?
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Then my tone may be being misinterpreted. Maybe I need a color chart or something.

    What you said is interesting and I would like to know more about your thoughts on the subject.
    What you said is interesting and it differs from my experience. Let's compare notes.
    What you said is interesting, but not pertinent to what I asked.
    I don't think I agree with what you said. Let me make sure I understand you before we argue.
    In my experience, you're simply wrong. Please provide evidence to back up your point.
     
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  16. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Yeah.
     
  17. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    @pdg and for Keumgang, it's basically the whole darn form. :p
     
  18. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    The following are based on similar moves in patterns I have done...

    'Scissor' blocks in chil jang - ostensibly a trap or break to an incoming punch or side kick (or possibly against a stick thrust. They are one block, not two.

    The moves in pal jang - those carry the description of a rearward backfist combined with a front low block. These are one of the 'two opponent' scenarios...
     
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  19. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    That one would need more time ;)

    If the mood strikes me I may put something basic together and pm it to you...
     
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  20. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    In this case, I'd consider the scissor block application you provided a Tier 2 application. Then again, it's kind of hard to tell because it's never been explained beyond the basic mechanics.

    This is a motion I learned in a different set of forms (Palgwes) where we describe it there as two blocks. In either case, maybe the problem isn't that a Tier 1 application doesn't exist, but the problem is that the Tier 1 application is woefully inefficient compared to other simpler options.
     

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