Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you define exaggerated moves?

Move your body to the maximum. When you

- train, you use large circle and long path. Your mind is in the power generation.
- fight, you use small circle and short path. Your mind is in the speed generation.

Long fist "Gou Lou Cai Shou" in training.

Preying mantis "Gou Lou Cai Shou" in fighting.

 

[KPM]

This WC system has a lot of exaggerated moves.

But that is not at all typical of Wing Chun. He is known for using very exaggerated motions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But that is not at all typical of Wing Chun. He is known for using very exaggerated motions.

The exaggerated motion is used for training. Nobody will be that short for you to strike near the ground.

 

[Flying Crane]

How do you define exaggerated moves?

This guy is doing a Hop Gar form, a related system to my Tibetan White Crane.

Notice how his non-punching arm withdraws all the way to the back when he punches. The purpose of that is to train a full body rotation as a primary source of power generation, and pulling the arm all the way back like that helps ingrain the movement.

That is only part of it, the rotation should also be driven from the feet.

It is unlikely that one can use the punch in this format. But like I say, it is a training device meant to develop a specific skill. In actual use you would not withdraw the hand like that, but you still get the power from that rotation of the torso. The movement becomes smaller and the technique can take on a variety of shapes as long as you are driving your power from the feet and through the torso rotation. We train big movements in order to do small movements with great effect.

But if this fellow had a real fight and did not use that full withdrawal of the arm, he is still using his Hop Gar. It would be inaccurate to claim that he must fight with the full arm withdrawal, or else he is not using Hop Gar. Hop Gar fighting does not need to look like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When it comes to real application and you abandon the exaggerated/stylized movement that is often found in the forms, it will look different. It might look similar, or it might not, and it does not need to.

The principles are far more important on a foundational level than the techniques themselves. The principles can manifest in any number of ways, including techniques that do not even look like “proper” techniques.

Honestly there is a whole lot of room to recognize a technique within an application that does not look identical to the form.

An easy example of this (outside WC) is the standard, well-known Karate-style punch, with the deep chambering of the hand prior to punching. That never happens in application, so it doesn't really look much like the practice position, but the power generation is still the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe the disconnect here is that Wing Chun doesn't really have a lot of overly exaggerated moves in the forms.

I've always assumed the complex series of hand movements in that one form (what's often referred to as the "hand waving") was somewhat exaggerated compared to the size of the movements in application. Is it not?

 

[Flying Crane]

An easy example of this (outside WC) is the standard, well-known Karate-style punch, with the deep chambering of the hand prior to punching. That never happens in application, so it doesn't really look much like the practice position, but the power generation is still the same.

Exactly. My system has an even more pronounced version of that same thing.

 

[KPM]

I've always assumed the complex series of hand movements in that one form (what's often referred to as the "hand waving") was somewhat exaggerated compared to the size of the movements in application. Is it not?

Not sure which hand movements you are talking about.

In Pin Sun Wing Chun we do have a set called "Saam Gin Choi." It is a series of 3 punches. The first punch is an exaggerated "long arm" punch similar to what you might find in Hung Kuen. It is considered a "power punch" or "finishing blow" and is exaggerated in practice to develop the power just as Michael pointed out in that Hop Ga clip. Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun has a very similar punch. Ip Man Wing Chun not so much. But that is one of the few times that a movement is purposefully exaggerated. It is certainly not the norm. But I understand what you guys are saying. But even though the Kyokushin Karate guy while sparring may not be chambering the non-punching hand all the way back to the hip as he does in his forms, is what he is doing not still recognizable as Karate?

 

[Flying Crane]

Not sure which hand movements you are talking about.

In Pin Sun Wing Chun we do have a set called "Saam Gin Choi." It is a series of 3 punches. The first punch is an exaggerated "long arm" punch similar to what you might find in Hung Kuen. It is considered a "power punch" or "finishing blow" and is exaggerated in practice to develop the power just as Michael pointed out in that Hop Ga clip. Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun has a very similar punch. Ip Man Wing Chun not so much. But that is one of the few times that a movement is purposefully exaggerated. It is certainly not the norm. But I understand what you guys are saying. But even though the Kyokushin Karate guy while sparring may not be chambering the non-punching hand all the way back to the hip as he does in his forms, is what he is doing not still recognizable as Karate?

I think that on the street when he is wearing jeans and a tee-shirt and nothing to identify him as a karate guy, while facing down a couple of punks who are demanding a handout, it is just a punch that lands like a sledgehammer. identifying the source of the training by what the punch looks like during that altercation doesn’t matter. An educated eye might be able to spot the telltale principles to recognize that the fellow has training of some sort under his belt, but that is a special and unlikely audience.

 

[Flying Crane]

Double post

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not sure which hand movements you are talking about.

In Pin Sun Wing Chun we do have a set called "Saam Gin Choi." It is a series of 3 punches. The first punch is an exaggerated "long arm" punch similar to what you might find in Hung Kuen. It is considered a "power punch" or "finishing blow" and is exaggerated in practice to develop the power just as Michael pointed out in that Hop Ga clip. Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun has a very similar punch. Ip Man Wing Chun not so much. But that is one of the few times that a movement is purposefully exaggerated. It is certainly not the norm. But I understand what you guys are saying. But even though the Kyokushin Karate guy while sparring may not be chambering the non-punching hand all the way back to the hip as he does in his forms, is what he is doing not still recognizable as Karate?

I think the question is what we try to recognize as Karate. If we expect cues like the deep chamber, it won't look like Karate. If we look for the cues we see in sparring, we're more likely to recognize it. Where there's very little difference between stylized forms and the more "live" drills, I always look to see if the drills are keeping too much of the stylization - like you see in much of Aikido randori. It looks very much like the stylized practice, because it's just another form of stylized practice.

So, if we look at the more stylized version of chi sau, where the arms just trade positions over and over until someone takes an opening, but there's not much movement, and they always return to the trading arms. That's pretty stylized, and I wouldn't expect WC to look like that in sparring. We should be able to recognize WC in live sparring (even against another style), but only if we've seen WC in a reasonably live use. Live boxing doesn't look anything like speedbag work, which is comparable.

EDIT: The hand movements I referred to are in YMWC forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that on the street when he is wearing jeans and a tee-shirt and nothing to identify him as a karate guy, while facing down a couple of punks who are demanding a handout, it is just a punch that lands like a sledgehammer. identifying the source of the training by what the punch looks like during that altercation doesn’t matter. An educated eye might be able to spot the telltale principles to recognize that the fellow has training of some sort under his belt, but that is a special and unlikely audience.

Agreed. If the other person is trained in a striking art, the Karateka is more likely to be recognizable (to someone equipped to recognize them), because he'll look more like he looks in sparring when the fight turns into something more resembling sparring. The exceptions to this would be arts that train specific attacks, when responding to those attacks. If they trained them reasonably realistically, then their responses on the street should bear some resemblance to the most realistic drills (though probably not to the original teaching version).

I've stated in another thread that I also think what we're defending against changes what we look like. I'll have different movement defending against a wrestler than a boxer.

 

[ipmann97]

On another thread, Nobody Important posed the following question:

Clearly, and feel free to argue, Wing Chun as a fighting art has failed miserably when put to the test. Perhaps Wing Chun isn't supposed to look like your doing the forms when fighting, but more importantly, about learning how to refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill and fine motor skill when under duress. Is the art of Wing Chun being used wrong?

It's an old question, but one worthy of further discussion. What are your thoughts?

I always believed that Wing Chun was a style of defence with the ability to attack on defence. Personally I only see Wing Chun necessary to use is when someone is coming at you, not the other way around or else it just seems like a sport.

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[Gerry Seymour]

I always believed that Wing Chun was a style of defence with the ability to attack on defence. Personally I only see Wing Chun necessary to use is when someone is coming at you, not the other way around or else it just seems like a sport.

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The difference between sport and combat isn't whether you are defending or attacking. In many cases, it's good self-defense to pre-empt the attack, or to attack back in a moment when they back off their attack.

 

[Juany118]

A. yes but then they will demonstrate it in resisted drills and then live sparring. Did that happen?

B. lets pretend nobody cares and instead of judging the technique on their resume lets just judge the technique.

Then see my other response. He isn't teaching a technique, he is teaching two basic principles. The video is even called "principles."


A. Don't stay in the middle.
B. Don't use force against force and if your opponent does exploit the most obvious of side effects, loss of balance and the fact that, if you are out of the middle, the opponent is actually fighting against his own body, which contributes to the former.

@KPM I think we rarely see it in WC vs WC sparing simply because both sides are fighting using the same principle (never meet force with force.) This leads to each fighter, if equally matched, to essentially cancel each other out. However you do see it. Go back to that video I showed a while back of Sifu Jerry and put it on slowmo. I found this one. Start at :20.

For the first KO you don't simply see him trap, you see that he moves out of the center initially and, with the forward pressure of his initial trap, takes the balance from his opponent opponent because his opponent screws up. Instead of using footwork, which Sifu Keith illustrated in the video above, his opponent tries to resist with strength and the oppomentends up being forced off balance backwards. The opponent then tries to recover but again, since he is trying to use strength, Sifu Jerry, as he uses footwork, pulls him off balance forward. This causes the opponent to essentially fall into Sifu Jerry's punch.

Is it as pretty as Sifu Keith makes it out? Nope, fights are never that pretty in my experience, BUT the principles Sifu Keith was talking about are clearly evident in that encounter.

(PS I don't speak to any of the other fights in the video. That was simply the only one I could find with Sifu Jerry at MUSU that went "slow mo" so you could see the principles of footwork and taking advantage of the opponent going "force on force.")

 

[Juany118]

I didn't think he was presenting a series (as in "do this, then that") but a number of options from that frozen point in time.

More so just some generic options to illustrate the principles I noted above.

 

[drop bear]

Then see my other response. He isn't teaching a technique, he is teaching two basic principles. The video is even called "principles."


A. Don't stay in the middle.
B. Don't use force against force and if your opponent does exploit the most obvious of side effects, loss of balance and the fact that, if you are out of the middle, the opponent is actually fighting against his own body, which contributes to the former.

So no he never showed that live?

 

[Juany118]

So no he never showed that live?

Has he? Yeah admittedly, more so in the past however. Largely because unlike some Martial Arts instructors his full time job is instructing in both Martial Arts/Combatives, firearms, tactics and security audits/trainings with a lot of traveling.

You tend to start "just" teaching, and allow the instructors under you do the bulk of the "real" demonstration/sparring, when a "bad day" on the mat can be the difference between you getting on the plane to go train a Corporation or Agency and losing that money because you tore something. /Shrug.

That's one of the reasons I included the video I did as it shows the principles described in action. Sifu Jerry, a provisional Master himself, is a student of both Sifus in the video that sparked this part of the discussion.

 

[drop bear]

Has he? Yeah admittedly, more so in the past however. Largely because unlike some Martial Arts instructors his full time job is instructing in both Martial Arts/Combatives, firearms, tactics and security audits/trainings with a lot of traveling.

You tend to start "just" teaching, and allow the instructors under you do the bulk of the "real" demonstration/sparring, when a "bad day" on the mat can be the difference between you getting on the plane to go train a Corporation or Agency and losing that money because you tore something. /Shrug.

That's one of the reasons I included the video I did as it shows the principles described in action. Sifu Jerry, a provisional Master himself, is a student of both Sifus in the video that sparked this part of the discussion.

How much does he charge for a seminar? I know a guy Rob Gruifridda who is elite level, full time and will mix in. I would have suggested that is really not the standard.

Even our local rbsd guy Paul Cale mixes in I think. And he trains the army. I might ask him.

 

[Juany118]

How much does he charge for a seminar? I know a guy Rob Gruifridda who is elite level, full time and will mix in. I would have suggested that is really not the standard.

Even our local rbsd guy Paul Cale mixes in I think. And he trains the army. I might ask him.

His prices change depending on the topic/length etc. I think his next "ope " seminar is $200 per person. That is going to be a pistol and combat stress work shop but then there is also a $50 one on conditioning, core work and massage to enhance fighting fitness and flexibility

Also his seminars are not always "pure" Wing Chun, they will simply adhere to the principles. As an example it would just make no sense to try and teach WC to LEOs the way you do students in a dedicated school. The videos that pop up on YouTube though are from the WC school. In my experience paying organizations arent fans of what they pay for ending up on YouTube.