Wing Chun Boxing

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by KPM, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    I posted this in the other thread and it didn't get much of a response as the thread took a tangent. So I thought I would make it a topic of its own. What do guys think of what Rackemann is doing? Is combining Wing Chun and Boxing the way to really get it to work in fighting/sparring?









    He has essentially replaced the typical Wing Chun biomechanical "engine" or power base with a western boxing "engine" or power base while still using a lot of the Wing Chun concepts and techniques.

    Is this a valid version of Wing Chun? Or is this just Boxing with some Wing Chun "add ons"?
     
  2. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Only viewed the first video, it is quite representative of what I teach as to the application within fighting. I impress the use of the hip under the torso vs being front foot weighted when in close. There times that having a close guard and/or covering is important. Use of the mon sao/wu sao guard from the outside and attempting to enter is a good way to get smashed.

    A good Fighting person (no matter the system or style) must be willing and able to adapt. Strict adherence to ones ideology of any particular method when the opposition is doing something that is beating you is foolish.

    This interpretation and adaptation can be well suited for the the fighting method shown.
     
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  3. DanT

    DanT Black Belt

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    If you have to use boxing gloves then of course you have to modify your technique a little bit. I don't understand the difference much, because I was always taught to punch with the hip. I just don't understand, if you wanna box, why not just do boxing?

    Lap Da
    Pak Da
    Gan Da
    Tan Da

    All these techniques work when you master them, you don't need to pretend you know how to box. If you have big gloves on, you can adapt them a bit. I think a lot of people just aren't athletic enough to be able to move around and be dynamic and this is the problem. I do like how athletic and dynamic he moves tho.

    Over all, his style of Wing Chun is similar to what I do. Perhaps the differences are:

    - I keep the weight slightly on the back leg
    - I Kick more
    - I keep the shoulders dropped

    The pivoting on the toe is a wing chun concept and is taught in the LDBG form, I do that as well which most wing chun people don't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
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  4. Headhunter

    Headhunter Master of Arts

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    If it works for him who cares what you call it.
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    was having much the same discussion with kung fu guy. There. Is nothing much wrong with these styles apart from the insistance on using really exaggerated fighting stances tha slow down your movement. Which then leaves the open question of was winchun always rely poor or has is slowly evolved to make it so. Ie slow and unathletic people have turned it in to a style for them
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  6. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    "Adapting Wing Chun Techniques for Boxing"

    Yeah. It appears he started with incomplete Wing Chun, i.e.; techniques devoid of fighting strategy.

    So, he went to look for similar techniques in Western Boxing to figure out how to apply stuff in a fight, and just ended up mimicking WB overall, while still calling it "Wing Chun Boxing" so he can be the "founder" of something with traditional kung fu roots but effective.

    I think if your Wing Chun isn't really working, you'd be better off just learning boxing than trying to create something by mixing nonfunctional bits with boxing, especially if you've found similar, functional bits already existing in boxing.

    If he can make "Wing Chun Boxing" work, it's because of the strategy and techniques as they already exist in boxing. In other words... it's because of the boxing.

    Of course, the ego and bank account will be better off if you're a "creator" of a "style", rather than just a guy who cross trains WC and WB.
     
  7. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Only viewed the first video, it is quite representative of what I teach as to the application within fighting. I impress the use of the hip under the torso vs being front foot weighted when in close. There times that having a close guard and/or covering is important. Use of the mon sao/wu sao guard from the outside and attempting to enter is a good way to get smashed.

    ----So are you saying you use the boxing "biomechanics" he is showing when you apply your Wing Chun?

    A good Fighting person (no matter the system or style) must be willing and able to adapt. Strict adherence to ones ideology of any particular method when the opposition is doing something that is beating you is foolish.

    ---I agree. But adapting to a few different angles or bobbing on occasion when you can't get your hands up to defend fast enough is one thing. Completely changing your biomechanical base is another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that you do your "classical" Wing Chun training but then are a bit "freer" with form and mechanics when applying? I see that as different than making of a point of training with a boxing mechanic specifically on a regular basis.

    ---Dave pointed out on the other thread that he thinks that the best use of Wing Chun is for refining another martial art.....for taking an art that uses mostly "gross motor skills" and using Wing Chun to refine it and provide the "fine motor skills." Taking western boxing and then using Wing Chun to "refine it" seems to fit with this idea perfectly. And....it gives you an effective fighting method that is relatively easier and faster to learn than a TCMA (western boxing), and then refines it and makes it more "martial" by using Wing Chun.

    ---I've played around with what Rackemann is doing in his videos off and on over the years. I spent a good amount of time training Panantukan. Dan Inosanto's version of Panantukan is essentially western boxing with FMA-specific hand techniques added in. I do think that the western boxing biomechanic is more fluid and more "natural" than just about every "classical" or "traditional" martial art out there. But the question still remains in my mind.....is doing your Wing Chun with a western boxing base or biomechanics still an acceptable or valid form of Wing Chun? Is this a natural "evolution" of Wing Chun for modern fighting? Is this the way to make Wing Chun truly "workable" and usable again?
     
  8. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    If he can make "Wing Chun Boxing" work, it's because of the strategy and techniques as they already exist in boxing. In other words... it's because of the boxing.

    ---Yeah. That's the one thing you said in your post that is likely true. And I think that's the point of the whole thing. Boxing works in free sparring/fighting pretty well. The same thing can't be said of Wing Chun. Wing Chun is somewhat specialized. So can you take something known to work well, and just give it some refinements so it also works in more "specialized" environments?

    ---Now before everyone goes getting all excited and saying "Wing Chun works well!" Consider how crappy Wing Chun guys do in just about any sparring video with another style. Wing Chun guys have not developed a reputation for being good in mixed sparring scenarios....WSLVT guys included. A good boxer would clean up on just about every TCMA guy you see in the typical sparring/fighting videos on youtube. So take that guy.....and then teach him some Wing Chun to "refine" or "augment" his boxing skills......:)
     
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  9. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Dan, no offense, but are you recognizing the different body mechanics in use between Rackemann and "classical" Wing Chun? There is a lot more to what he is doing than just doing his Wing Chun while wearing boxing gloves.
     
  10. Martial D

    Martial D 2nd Black Belt

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    A valid version of Wing Chun. Not even all pure Wing Chun lineages consider all other Wing Chun to be 'valid' so this could get slippery.

    Me, I say..does it work?

    Yes=valid
    No =invalid.

    For me it works quite well. Worked for Bruce Lee too.

    If it works for this guy, I say great.
     
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  11. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    When applying WC...No.

    Training WC...We train WC.
    My personal interpretation...I move from one base to another depending on what is most applicable. Boxing mechanics is for a different distance from the opponent and what is the objective for using a particular action.
    When sparring in Muay Thai I often get my sparring partners frustrated by the shifting to WC when inside fighting and then back to a Muay Thai base with at a longer range.

    ---Dave pointed out on the other thread that he thinks that the best use of Wing Chun is for refining another martial art.....for taking an art that uses mostly "gross motor skills" and using Wing Chun to refine it and provide the "fine motor skills." Taking western boxing and then using Wing Chun to "refine it" seems to fit with this idea perfectly. And....it gives you an effective fighting method that is relatively easier and faster to learn than a TCMA (western boxing), and then refines it and makes it more "martial" by using Wing Chun.

    ---I've played around with what Rackemann is doing in his videos off and on over the years. I spent a good amount of time training Panantukan. Dan Inosanto's version of Panantukan is essentially western boxing with FMA-specific hand techniques added in. I do think that the western boxing biomechanic is more fluid and more "natural" than just about every "classical" or "traditional" martial art out there. But the question still remains in my mind.....is doing your Wing Chun with a western boxing base or biomechanics still an acceptable or valid form of Wing Chun? Is this a natural "evolution" of Wing Chun for modern fighting? Is this the way to make Wing Chun truly "workable" and usable again?[/QUOTE]

    When I train WC it is WC
    When I train MT it is MT
    When I train Boxing it is Boxing...etc.
    I would not call what I do personally WC because it is more than just WC.
     
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  12. Martial D

    Martial D 2nd Black Belt

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    This is my exact experience as well. Soon as the arms tie up, weigh shifts back, spine straightens..I'm doing chi sau in that moment.
     
  13. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Ok. Fair enough! But that begs the question I've asked before....... Do you need to train the entire system of "classical" Wing Chun from start to finish in order to do that?
     
  14. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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  15. DanT

    DanT Black Belt

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    I do, I'm just saying if you do use boxing gloves you need to modify the technique a little anyways.
     
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  16. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    I don't know if your estimation of Guro's Dan Panantukan is entirely accurate. One of the guys in my class spent a fair amount of time in the Philippines and he has some background in it, this is how he describes the differences in Northern and Southern Philippines unarmed art. In the south far more Silat influence. In the north far more boxing influence (the sometimes used term "dirty boxing".) Why did he say that? Because the south was never fully pacified by the USA. Heck down their they sometimes use the term Silat in general for FMA vs Kali, Arnis or Eskrima. In the north the US/Western Boxing influence took hold, similar to how in the north you will find Spanish sword techniques in the weapon work.

    Now I will say Guro Dan has inserted some traditional western boxing training techniques that they don't use in the Philippines and that he perhaps leans more towards western boxing than they do as well BUT Panantukan is heavily influenced, in the foot work and punching aspect, by western boxing. Its actually one of the things I LOVE about FMA. Often occupied cultures will make the ways of the "invader" forbidden. The Filipinos did exactly the opposite. They said "hey sword and dagger (Spanish sword) works!!!!" So we got Espada y daga. They did the same empty hand eventually. Elements of the West blended with the native art to make something very effective.
     
  17. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    If Wing Chun doesn't work well in sparring/fighting, in what "speciailzed" environment does it work well, chi-sau?

    Sounds pretty useless!

    Something nonfunctional will not "refine" something functional. It will only crap on it.

    So, the same question remains. Why not ditch the Wing Chun (something "known not to work well") and just do Western Boxing (something "known to work well")?
     
  18. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Well....yeah! But doesn't that amount to the same thing? Panantukan is essentially western boxing with FMA-specific hand methods thrown in?
     
  19. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    As Dave noted in the other thread, the "specialized" range for Wing Chun seems to be Chi Sau range or "clinch" range. That doesn't mean someone would be doing Chi Sau in a fight, but rather that the skills developed in Chi Sau come into play the most at that range. So if someone is a good boxer, but in the "clinch range" only knows how to hold and hit and then push away..... learning how to deflect and trap and manipulate the opponent ala Wing Chun would indeed be a refinement of his fighting skills.

    Personally I think Wing Chun also has some tools to offer to boxing at punching range. If you look at something like Lyte Burly's "52 Blocks" there are a lot of elements that "standard" boxing doesn't have, but that bear a good resemblance to Wing Chun. "Skull & Bones" from 52 Blocks is essentially a Bong Sau. There are others.
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The first video is using concepts from a stance called the philly shell. Which i dont get and cant make work.

    So if you can figure out how that works then yeah you could chunify it I suppose.

    The trick is to work out where you can apply it.

    I probably wouldn't try to go down the philly shell or maywhether path. It just seems too at odds.

    I would look more at amature boxing and lomachenko. Who does a bit more of that upright angles and footwork that chun seems to like.

     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
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