Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[TMA17]

 

[TMA17]

Just an observation on this dead horse topic: after spending some time at 3 different WC schools, I would say that the type of student at a WC school vs that of an MMA/boxing gym is much different with the former being much less “in shape” with a different focus. That alone would lead to a different end result in terms of fighters produced. There seems to be more of an intellectual curiosity within the WC crowd. Whether it’s grounded in reality I don’t know. Boxing will always be the “sweet science.”

Your average MMA fighter is 90% of the time in better shape than your average WC guy. That clearly plays a part in why we see so many lopsided YouTube videos along with other reasons of course.

 

[James.H1515]

On another thread, Nobody Important posed the following question:

Clearly, and feel free to argue, Wing Chun as a fighting art has failed miserably when put to the test. Perhaps Wing Chun isn't supposed to look like your doing the forms when fighting, but more importantly, about learning how to refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill and fine motor skill when under duress. Is the art of Wing Chun being used wrong?

It's an old question, but one worthy of further discussion. What are your thoughts?

Wing chun is supposed to look like the form because of structure reason, all teachers teach different but what's important is that wing chun is very complicated art when learning a misconception that is easy because it's simple it's simple in terms of no fancy movements.
Wing chun has only failed those who under pressure cant perform because they have not trained under pressure or train under a teacher with bad knowledge of wing chun.


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[James.H1515]

The advantage of YZKYM is both of your fists can have the same reach. But you can do that with "cross stance" - right leg forward with left hand forward.

I have always believed that the YZKYM has the following weakness:

- Both legs are too close and vulnerable for "double legs".
- Heel pointing out and vulnerable for "foot sweep".
- Inward bending knee joint is vulnerable for side kick.
- Open your chest and belly for kick.
- Prevent you from turning your body to have "maximum reach".
- ...

So why train YZKYM if you don't use it in fighting?

The WC system was created in the south part of China. There were not many wrestlers there. The YZKYM is a good stance to maintain balance on boat. But on the dry land, that's different story.

Very good theory but the yzkym is only used in the form to learn and in movies to show it's wing chun as in just posing.
From what I've learnt yzkym has it's practice use not as a stance but for example to press opponents etc but now a days a lot of so called wing chun practitioners use this stance for show

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[James.H1515]

At the risk of offending pretty much everyone..yes..yes it is. I see wing Chun as a condiment rather than a meal as it pertains to combat.

By that I mean it contains many useful and deadly principles that are very much useful for fighting, but the classical approach isn't too effective. The centerline guard doesn't work against anyone that can box, the footwork is too immobile, and it is too limited in approach vis a vis any range besides trapping range.

With all that said, I absolutely love WC as a tool to break out just as soon as tie up/trapping range happens, and WC punching is easily modified for longer range hand attacks and quicker footwork(think jkd)

Good theory but wing chun is not all about trapping lot of people assume this or maybe they were only taught trapping.
there's gor sau techniques for going against boxing style etc.
Gor sau I believe means crossing hands not the same as trapping.


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[James.H1515]

Just an observation on this dead horse topic: after spending some time at 3 different WC schools, I would say that the type of student at a WC school vs that of an MMA/boxing gym is much different with the former being much less “in shape” with a different focus. That alone would lead to a different end result in terms of fighters produced. There seems to be more of an intellectual curiosity within the WC crowd. Whether it’s grounded in reality I don’t know. Boxing will always be the “sweet science.”

Your average MMA fighter is 90% of the time in better shape than your average WC guy. That clearly plays a part in why we see so many lopsided YouTube videos along with other reasons of course.

That maybe true about fitness but wing chun is designed for everyone in terms of fitness.
Even a old man or fat or skinny boy should be able to deffend himself a little better.
Every one gets old and loses muscle or gains weight and don't go gym etc but wing chun can still be used

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[Martial D]

Good theory but wing chun is not all about trapping lot of people assume this or maybe they were only taught trapping.
there's gor sau techniques for going against boxing style etc.
Gor sau I believe means crossing hands not the same as trapping.


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Yes I am aware there is more to the WC syllabus than trapping. However, making the classical approach work in alive combat or sparring is quite a different animal than drilling things with a compliant partner.

PS I think you mean gwoh sau.

 

[James.H1515]

Yes I am aware there is more to the WC syllabus than trapping. However, making the classical approach work in alive combat or sparring is quite a different animal than drilling things with a compliant partner.

PS I think you mean gwoh sau.

What the classical approach? It really depends on the person using the art and how they're taught.
Ive seen WC work in both real and sparring but if u have a sparring match with boxing gloves on wing chun won't work.
I guess If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work another art maybe suit you better.
WC can be a complicated art and what I've found out is some will try over complicate things by using advance movement and not keeping it simple.
Ps. Doesn't matter if u spell it gwor sau or gor sau as long as you understand because it's not the real way to write it any way it's romanised to the sound in Chinese just like some will write wing chun or Wing tsun.

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[Martial D]

The variations in spelling are actually due to various lineage masters issuing patents and copyrights, but ya.

Anyway I feel no impetus to spoil any beliefs you might have. I've been practicing WC(among other things) since the mid nineties, I only speak from experience. I've yet to see anyone make pure stand alone Wing Chun work in alive combat/sparring/fighting.

At trapping range it really does add some nice tricks though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The variations in spelling are actually due to various lineage masters issuing patents and copyrights, but ya.

Anyway I feel no impetus to spoil any beliefs you might have. I've been practicing WC(among other things) since the mid nineties, I only speak from experience. I've yet to see anyone make pure stand alone Wing Chun work in alive combat/sparring/fighting.

At trapping range it really does add some nice tricks though.

Persnickety comment: I think you meant trademarks and servicemarks.

 

[TMA17]

Anyway I feel no impetus to spoil any beliefs you might have. I've been practicing WC(among other things) since the mid nineties, I only speak from experience. I've yet to see anyone make pure stand alone Wing Chun work in alive combat/sparring/fighting.

At trapping range it really does add some nice tricks though.

Unfortunately I think that is the case. The Sifu at the TWC school I attended know this, which is why he blends in other punches from other systems and other footwork.

The Moy Yat guys insist on maintain and perfecting structure, because that is how WC works in their eyes. I think they are both right, but some say you can't have it both ways.

I can see WC working in a situation where a guy gets in your face and pushes you or starts from that distance where you could theoretically trap/punch and attack fast and hard. On the flip side, any fast punch or dodging method would also work too.

 

[Martial D]

Unfortunately I think that is the case. The Sifu at the TWC school I attended know this, which is why he blends in other punches from other systems and other footwork.

The Moy Yat guys insist on maintain and perfecting structure, because that is how WC works in their eyes. I think they are both right, but some say you can't have it both ways.

I can see WC working in a situation where a guy gets in your face and pushes you or starts from that distance where you could theoretically trap/punch and attack fast and hard. On the flip side, any fast punch or dodging method would also work too.

Agreed. For me, WC "works" in those situations where the guy is beaking off to you inches from your face, or grabs your shirt or your arms, or in a scramble when your tied up like in a hockey fight. Sure there are other solutions at that range too, but I naturally fall into WC in those moments, similar to how I fall back to BJJ and try to sweep if someone gets on top of me, or do a wrestling sprawl when someone tries to get my legs.

 

[drop bear]

Just an observation on this dead horse topic: after spending some time at 3 different WC schools, I would say that the type of student at a WC school vs that of an MMA/boxing gym is much different with the former being much less “in shape” with a different focus. That alone would lead to a different end result in terms of fighters produced. There seems to be more of an intellectual curiosity within the WC crowd. Whether it’s grounded in reality I don’t know. Boxing will always be the “sweet science.”

Your average MMA fighter is 90% of the time in better shape than your average WC guy. That clearly plays a part in why we see so many lopsided YouTube videos along with other reasons of course.

BJJ is full of nerds though. If hard training is part of the culture people will accept it as normal.

 

[geezer]

BJJ is full of nerds though. If hard training is part of the culture people will accept it as normal.

Yeah, but in my limited experience, most nerdy-geeky professional types, especially those over 50, don't enjoy training that hard and competing against a resisting opponent in a striking art. You can test a student and give resistance more safely in grappling arts.

So these guys might be fine pushing their limit in drills, but never really spar much. At 62, I can totally understand.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BJJ is full of nerds though. If hard training is part of the culture people will accept it as normal.

I'd argue that people select the environment that suits them. If you train really hard, you'll generally get people who are okay with (or even excited about) training really hard. If you spar hard, you'll get people who like to spar hard.

If you take a gentler approach, you'll get people who want a gentler approach. Change that, and you end up changing the people.

 

[Danny T]

Yeah, but in my limited experience, most nerdy-geeky professional types, especially those over 50, don't enjoy training that hard and competing against a resisting opponent in a striking art. You can test a student and give resistance more safely in grappling arts.

So these guys might be fine pushing their limit in drills, but never really spar much. At 62, I can totally understand.

I have had more injuries grappling than I have had in striking.

 

[geezer]

I have had more injuries grappling than I have had in striking.

I agree. Especially joint injuries. And the back. I've messed up both! Maybe it's a matter of perception. Somehow striking is scarier to a lot of people. As is the thought of showing up to work with your face bruised up ...or concussed. Heck I'm running low on brain cells already.

 

[James.H1515]

I respect all the comments about wing chun but what I don't understand is this range business?
Wing chun has many ranges for combat I mean the arms and legs can only stretch so much to call is long distance any way.
Any distances you would have to close in any way to make contact.
Please tell me more about your experiences.



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[Martial D]

I have had more injuries grappling than I have had in striking.

Not only that, but the injuries you'll get from striking generally heal up in a much shorter amount of time. I'll take 5 back to back bruised shinbones and black eyes before I'll take a torn or dislocated anything.

 

[James.H1515]

Unfortunately I think that is the case. The Sifu at the TWC school I attended know this, which is why he blends in other punches from other systems and other footwork.

The Moy Yat guys insist on maintain and perfecting structure, because that is how WC works in their eyes. I think they are both right, but some say you can't have it both ways.

I can see WC working in a situation where a guy gets in your face and pushes you or starts from that distance where you could theoretically trap/punch and attack fast and hard. On the flip side, any fast punch or dodging method would also work too.

Out of interest what sort of punches are you speaking of and footwork?


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