Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Martial D]

Also likely why we seldom see things like this in sparring.

True story.

WC offers a lot of really cool tools, I really do love the art, I hate to seem like such a hater, because I'm really not.

And if someone starts consistently starts pulling off this sort of pure WC in live action I will be the first to congratulate them and henceforth steal their methods for myself.

 

[TMA17]

As I’m reading Beyond the Pointed Finger, I came across a part where WSL said he’s basically against this type of training “if this then do that.”

The key seems to be to learn the forms, balance, speed and sensitivity so you react when need be with whatever is suited for that moment which could be a variety of things.

 

[Martial D]

As I’m reading Beyond the Pointed Finger, I came across a part where WSL said he’s basically against this type of training “if this then do that.”

The key seems to be to learn the forms, balance, speed and sensitivity so you react when need be with whatever is suited for that moment which could be a variety of things.

The problem is that there's no real way to tell which moves are low percentage without live training, and there's no way to develop the reflexes to pull any of that off without live training.

So if this then <a variety of possible WC techniques> is fine if you have achieved being able to pull them off in a live setting, but if you can not they are all functionally useless.

This begs the question, why are there not live speed, non cooperative demonstrations of these things happening? The answer seems obvious to me.

This is also why I don't put much stock in static demonstrations. Yes, to learn any technique properly will probably require a couple, but you can't tell much about the actual effectiveness that way.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Ron Balicki put out a good DVD series on Panantukan called "Filipino Boxing." Ron has competed in Shoot Boxing before and still spars regularly. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Filipino Boxing, but there are a lot of "limb destructions", sweeps, takedowns and such that can get a little intricate. Ron would periodically feature a segment on his DVDs showing himself free-sparring with a student attempting to show how some of the things he was teaching could be used in sparring. But what impressed me, was how flowing and cool various things looked when he was teaching them.....and how HARD they actually were to pull off in sparring! Bottom line.....the simple basics are what can be relied upon. Anything the least bit "intricate" that takes more than 2 or 3 counts to execute just aren't likely to work unless you are REALLY good at them! And I think too often Wing Chun people have NOT concentrated on how to make their basic techniques and structure and the system's strategy work in a free-fight situation and they end up abandoning it when sparring. Chi Sau does NOT teach you that at all! To develop this takes a "progressive sparring" or "structured sparring" approach. This would be similar to what Sifu Mazza is showing in that video, but I suspect even what he is showing is simply to "intricate" with too many steps relying upon an unrealistic response from the opponent to work. But you CAN figure these things out in a "structured sparring" situation where there are some rules, but the partner is expected to react in a more realistic way. This is the only way to really develop your Wing Chun as a real fighting method. Forget anything that takes more than 3 counts to execute because it is not likely to work! Forget anything that assumes the opponent is going to freeze his movement even for a second, because it is not likely to work! Forget just jumping into the ring and sparring because you are just going to be doing sloppy kickboxing if you have not systematically developed your Wing Chun to work in that kind of scenario.

One example of what I'm talking about is found in Sifu Duncan Leung's schools. Everyone is geared up to some extent. They form a circle and each student takes a turn being the guy in the middle of the circle. Then each person in the circle one after the other launches a random attack at the guy in the middle that he/she has to defend against and counter. And around it goes.

 

[drop bear]

Also likely why we seldom see things like this in sparring.

Unless from ulta slick boxers.

Lomenchenco will pin arms.

 

[TMA17]

^^^^^ Ron Balicki put out a good DVD series on Panantukan called "Filipino Boxing." Ron has competed in Shoot Boxing before and still spars regularly. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Filipino Boxing, but there are a lot of "limb destructions", sweeps, takedowns and such that can get a little intricate. Ron would periodically feature a segment on his DVDs showing himself free-sparring with a student attempting to show how some of the things he was teaching could be used in sparring. But what impressed me, was how flowing and cool various things looked when he was teaching them.....and how HARD they actually were to pull off in sparring! Bottom line.....the simple basics are what can be relied upon. Anything the least bit "intricate" that takes more than 2 or 3 counts to execute just aren't likely to work unless you are REALLY good at them! And I think too often Wing Chun people have NOT concentrated on how to make their basic techniques and structure and the system's strategy work in a free-fight situation and they end up abandoning it when sparring. Chi Sau does NOT teach you that at all! To develop this takes a "progressive sparring" or "structured sparring" approach. This would be similar to what Sifu Mazza is showing in that video, but I suspect even what he is showing is simply to "intricate" with too many steps relying upon an unrealistic response from the opponent to work. But you CAN figure these things out in a "structured sparring" situation where there are some rules, but the partner is expected to react in a more realistic way. This is the only way to really develop your Wing Chun as a real fighting method. Forget anything that takes more than 3 counts to execute because it is not likely to work! Forget anything that assumes the opponent is going to freeze his movement even for a second, because it is not likely to work! Forget just jumping into the ring and sparring because you are just going to be doing sloppy kickboxing if you have not systematically developed your Wing Chun to work in that kind of scenario.

One example of what I'm talking about is found in Sifu Duncan Leung's schools. Everyone is geared up to some extent. They form a circle and each student takes a turn being the guy in the middle of the circle. Then each person in the circle one after the other launches a random attack at the guy in the middle that he/she has to defend against and counter. And around it goes.

Makes a lot of sense. You touched on something that is very true - simple basics. Learn them well. I'd say learning only a few punches very well, a few kicks very well and some ground techniques you would probably be ok in most confrontations. This goes for any art too.

WC is good self defense. MMA is good sport. Athleticism will almost always prevail regardless of the art

 

[WcForMe]

From my time training from what I have seen Is wing chun is an amazing fighting art. But simply put you can't teach a sheep to be a wolf. Fighting well, correctly relaxed in the moment controlling the adrenal dump using timing, controlling distance just doesn't come naturally to some people. Some people are terrified of the thought of a physical altercation. Wing chun trains your reactions, it takes longer to learn those fine motor skills and for them to stand up under pressure period then say boxing. Boxing is more natural for the majority of people. Lomochenko is an amazing boxer. Over 300 amateur fights with 0 losses. Has 1 loss by a bad decision pro record, that's documented as far as I know. Trained since he was 4, trained traditional Ukrainian folk dancing for 4 years in his youth before he was allowed to box properly so I heard. He also trained Judo and something other things as a youngster again before boxing. To me he looks quite wing chun sometimes. Uses pins, a version of pak da and pak Sao, his footwork to flank to the side is very familiar to me. This now brings me to my point. From what I've seen people that have trained boxing or Thai boxing, kickboxing or some form of stand up fighting system or art can learn wing chun much quicker and use it very very effectively. The reason I personally believe why this is, is because most wing chun sifus don't talk or train game plans, talking and showing about targeting punches, setting up openings with movement, general stragies etc etc. This leads to doing drills probably relatively static in a training stance. I personally believe that the goat stance is training you to build up your muscles and create good posture. It's not a fighting stance until you turn to the left or right coupled with a lack of sparring and pressure testing. Then you expect wing chun to show it has great fighters?

Sparring for me isn't beating each other hard. It doesn't really simulate an actual fight. What it was do is learn about timing, movement, using strategy to create openings with kicks, hands, get in range for elbows and sweeps. Maybe pad up with head guards, boxing or mma gloves, kick shields and pressure test twice a month. All helps that fine refinement of wing chun. In my personal opinion wing chun does not lend itself to actual natural fighters. There's gunna go boxing or mma kickboxing do K1 etc. People that seem to train wing chun now are people that see Ip man the movie and want to learn it. The amount of students I've seen that have does this is crazy. I started wing chun because Bruce lee did it and he's awesome. I'm no better in this regard. But be honest with yourselves are you really that fighter that has a mental ability or have the will and balls to strike when needed. People train wing chun for different reasons. Some love forms and being technical and or traditional as possible. That's fine. I say crack on mate, more people training wing chun the better in my opinion. But don't tell me you can take on world class and battle hardened fighters. I can fight. I'm not the best. I'm humble enough to say probably I'm not really gunna be able to smash up most professional fighters. And why should I with my 2 x 3 hours a week of training and whatever else I can be assed to do a home compared to blood sweat and tears for hours everyday traning to be a fighter. However the average joe that wants trouble or a mugger, or drunken angry guy you gunna be in trouble. For self protection I think wing chun is great. But it all comes down to why do YOU train? If you train to fight fair enough, train for fun or fitness fair enough. Most people if they actually have to fight it's not battle harnded fighters there fighting is it? No it's usually the untrained wild man or windmill punch guy.

From memory this op was answered in several threads. One was " where's all the warriors gone?" I had a thread that was similar a year ago or so. Look at the new video out from Sifu Mark Phillips which already had a thread on the wing chun section. Look at Sifu Phillip Redmonds YouTube video that was about him training a professional boxer and trainer from a mayweather gym in Las Vegas. That dude picked up a bil Sao pretty quick! The other wing chun Sifu on that video from eastern Europes punches are super impressive. Much harder than the boxers. I'm pretty sure I'm making sense. But it's only based on my personal opinions and from what I have seen.

 

[drop bear]

Makes a lot of sense. You touched on something that is very true - simple basics. Learn them well. I'd say learning only a few punches very well, a few kicks very well and some ground techniques you would probably be ok in most confrontations. This goes for any art too.

WC is good self defense. MMA is good sport. Athleticism will almost always prevail regardless of the art

MMA is kind of the benchmark for testing martial arts efficiency though If you want to explore as much of the full dynamics as you can of your system without going out and street fighting.

For example MMA gloves won't prevent you using hand trapping effectively.

The other guy might. But then that is your issue to fix.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unfortunately time doesn't freeze, and at real time the demo guy would be moving like 'the flash', even to get off any of that. It's all happening when the guy is in mid strike, extended. A split second.

There's a reason why you'll never see this sort of nonsense at full speed and full resistance without cooperation. It's basically LARPing.

I agree that much of what is shown in freeze-time doesn't work if they keep moving. However, it's odd to make fun of the use of freeze-time, since literally every coach or instructor I've ever seen uses it. Wrestling coaches use it to show where the opening is for a takedown. BJJ instructors use it to show how the arm is controlled. Karate instructors use it to show the opening for a sweep. Boxing coaches use it to show where the other guy has left an opening in his guard. And so on.

The issue isn't that someone's using freeze-time in his demo. The issue is that some folks don't seem to progress beyond that, to finding out how things work in real-time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is that there's no real way to tell which moves are low percentage without live training, and there's no way to develop the reflexes to pull any of that off without live training.

So if this then <a variety of possible WC techniques> is fine if you have achieved being able to pull them off in a live setting, but if you can not they are all functionally useless.

This begs the question, why are there not live speed, non cooperative demonstrations of these things happening? The answer seems obvious to me.

This is also why I don't put much stock in static demonstrations. Yes, to learn any technique properly will probably require a couple, but you can't tell much about the actual effectiveness that way.

I think (and this is based on broad observations, not specific to WC) that a lot of times the use of freeze-time simply isn't paired with drills that move fast enough and add the "opponent's" next move (so they don't freeze mid-attack). If you add that next move, it becomes much more difficult to get the timing for the technique (something Drop Bear posted on another thread).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

^^^^^ Ron Balicki put out a good DVD series on Panantukan called "Filipino Boxing." Ron has competed in Shoot Boxing before and still spars regularly. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Filipino Boxing, but there are a lot of "limb destructions", sweeps, takedowns and such that can get a little intricate. Ron would periodically feature a segment on his DVDs showing himself free-sparring with a student attempting to show how some of the things he was teaching could be used in sparring. But what impressed me, was how flowing and cool various things looked when he was teaching them.....and how HARD they actually were to pull off in sparring! Bottom line.....the simple basics are what can be relied upon. Anything the least bit "intricate" that takes more than 2 or 3 counts to execute just aren't likely to work unless you are REALLY good at them! And I think too often Wing Chun people have NOT concentrated on how to make their basic techniques and structure and the system's strategy work in a free-fight situation and they end up abandoning it when sparring. Chi Sau does NOT teach you that at all! To develop this takes a "progressive sparring" or "structured sparring" approach. This would be similar to what Sifu Mazza is showing in that video, but I suspect even what he is showing is simply to "intricate" with too many steps relying upon an unrealistic response from the opponent to work. But you CAN figure these things out in a "structured sparring" situation where there are some rules, but the partner is expected to react in a more realistic way. This is the only way to really develop your Wing Chun as a real fighting method. Forget anything that takes more than 3 counts to execute because it is not likely to work! Forget anything that assumes the opponent is going to freeze his movement even for a second, because it is not likely to work! Forget just jumping into the ring and sparring because you are just going to be doing sloppy kickboxing if you have not systematically developed your Wing Chun to work in that kind of scenario.

One example of what I'm talking about is found in Sifu Duncan Leung's schools. Everyone is geared up to some extent. They form a circle and each student takes a turn being the guy in the middle of the circle. Then each person in the circle one after the other launches a random attack at the guy in the middle that he/she has to defend against and counter. And around it goes.

I generally teach the more complex approaches as recovery ("Here's what you can do if you wander over this way, and it takes you this long to get control." or "Here's what you can do if you start this technique and it fails, but you still have control of his bodyweight.") The long steps getting to the finish are training for maintaining control. The finish may or may not be the one you train with that sequence - it's just whichever finish is available when you get there.

 

[TMA17]

There are so many atrocious videos of WC guys that just have no idea of how to fight it's sad. Part of it is what/how they are being taught, and some of it is because they are just not even the slightest bit athletic and maybe go into the art thinking they will become a great fighter by learning these forms. The over reliance on chain punching, not moving quick enough at different angles and using the other options like elbows and kicks....etc...it's just awful. WC fights end up being two dudes throwing ridiculous chain punches at one another and seem to forget everything else that is available to them. I still say it's not the art.

I'm going to be visiting a new place next Wednesday and possibly give WC one last try. Reason being they seem to engage in sparing and tournaments.

Sifu Eng
Grandmaster Art E. Eng | U.S. Open Martial Arts Championship

"The USA Wing Chun Kuen Association was founded in 2002 by Grandmaster Art Eng. During the first few years, the organization was comprised of a small group of talented students who would take the on the challenges set forth by the Grandmaster. Participating in the Wong's Kung Fu tournament in Washington D.C for the first time in 2003, the USAWCKA would be named top Wing Chun School of the tournament."

He also knows TKD, Eskrima and Aikido. I'd like to learn Esrima with the WC.

On another note, I've been to 6 different martial arts/MMA/Boxing places in the last few months and only one I liked. That place was called Mission MMA. They were reasonably priced. However, what I've found with most of these places is they don't really teach true Muay Thai. They teach you western boxing with some kicks. You essentially end up paying for someone to hold bags so you can practice, which is valuable don't get me wrong but I'm not sure how long that is really worth it. The other places talk up their boxing but it's essentially cardio kicking boxing.

...and if I find the WC school isn't for me, I'm going to move on to something else. I'm trying everything out. I'm lucky where I live has a lot of good options. The last two places I'd like to try are the JKD Philly Defense School or Krav Maga, which is one of the real legit schools that teach it.

http://www.israelikrav.com/

I'm exhausting all my options before committing and locking into something....sorry rant over.

 

[TMA17]

I've posted this before, but this seems to literally be the only video out there where WC looks good, looks like WC....and works.

 

[drop bear]

I've posted this before, but this seems to literally be the only video out there where WC looks good, looks like WC....and works.

Yeah but he uses wing chun backwards.

So you go to class, someone will throw a punch at you, you intercept it, do something funky with the arm and punch them in the face.

And lets just consider this idea that you cant really see punches coming at speed.

So the above just doesn't work. Sorry. You basically have to cover under those conditions.

But if I am putting a flurry on them. Then they basically have to cover and their arms go from being lethal and fast moving to being safe and stationary.

And at that moment I can do funky arm punch them in the face stuff.

Old mate does it. Lomenchenco does it. It is basic fighting mechanics.

Trapping is done either when I force their arms to stop. Or I use distance to force them to step before they strike.

 

[TMA17]

 

[TMA17]

I really like this guy.

 

[TMA17]

Harinder Singh Sabharwal has some great DVDs on WC. It’s guys like him that know how to make it work.

 

[drop bear]

Man I seriously think this idea that wing chun will work if you just engage in a meat grinder syle fight is absolutely the wrong way to look at fights.

Screw meatgrinders. I want the shape of my face to stay relatively unchanged.

 

[TMA17]

 

[DaveB]

I really like this guy.

In a few of your posts you've mentioned as some kind of criteria the idea that wing chun should look like wing chun.

Does this video clarify why that's not really a useful criteria?