Is this disrespectful to other linages

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Gweilo, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:28 AM.

  1. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I don't 100% agree with it, and I don't think it was expressed in the best way possible, but I do understand it.

    We've had students come into my TKD dojang with a black belt from another school, and their skills were nowhere near our black belts. We've had others come in that are perfectly fine technically, but have a lot to learn in terms of our specific curriculum.

    Both of those may be less of a concern in BJJ, where I think there's more quality checking by means of competition, and I don't think they have specific curriculums. However, different gyms have different cultures. One gym may be full of hyper-competitive 20-somethings, another gym may be more focused on kids and old folks.

    If you're in a competitive gym, I'd understand not wanting to have someone who started at 45 and never competed speaking for you. Likewise, if you're in a more relaxed gym, I could understand not wanting some hothead to represent you.
     
  3. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Well the Gracie's aren't known for their humility and humbleness
     
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  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well possibly if it effects you and you feel disrespected, in which case dont go

    its really accepting what we all know to be true, that blackbelts are not all equal

    or look it the other way, its the same as a visitors badge at a workplace other than your own is that disrespectful to non employees ?-
     
  5. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's just a differentiation tool. He's not taking away their belt, and in the post it explains they get lots of visitors, so it's really just a way to signify who is/isn't a visitor. It prevents the instructor/lineage from getting blamed if someone sees a lousy black belt with the stripe training at the school (and prevents them from getting credit if they see an amazing black belt or other belt at the school with the stripe). It's not like he's forcing them to wear a belt other than the color they earned.

    And, at the root of it, belts are simply differentiation tools to begin with. So I see no issue.
     
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  6. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    He's not taking away their Black Belt just making a differential.
    I've done this for years. A black belt from a different art, school, organization, whatever moves over to train with us gets a black belt with a white stripe denoting they are a black belt in either a different art or school. When that individual meets our standards for black belt we will award them with a Black Belt from our school or organization.
     
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is a kind of weird linage thing happening with bjj. Just basic human importance attached to inconsequential attributes.

    There are BJJ schools and even competitions I can't wear my tie dye gi to as well.

    Of course if you can murder people on the mat people are going to lift you up to a mentorship role regardless of your belt.
     
  8. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    That's how I see it as well. Personally, I don't like to display rank at all. I do when I'm in an environment within our lineage where I am expected to, but have declined to do so in anyone else's club, even when encouraged to.

    I'm not a BJJ guy, but I can understand why they would take this position. You just can't lose control of your own environment.
     
  9. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I have no problem with it, I used to do the same thing myself.
     
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  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I have found the exact opposite to be true. Only spent any real time with two of them, but every time I did I always though to myself, "Why don't all Martial Artists behave this way?"
     
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  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Back in the 1973, my friend asked me to join in the US national guard. If I could just spend 2 weekends every month for 4 months, I could get paid $175 per month.

    I was a 2nd lieutenant in Taiwan. I have already served

    - 3 months soldier training,
    - 3 months sergeant training, and
    - 1 year 2nd lieutenant in Taiwan navy as navy supply officer.

    If I join in the US national guard, The US national guard will require me to go through the basic

    - soldier training, and
    - sergeant training.

    As a Taiwan navy 2nd lieutenant, there is no way that I will allow a US sergeant to yield at my face.

    I though this is similar to the MA ranking system issue. What's your opinion on this?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 3:00 PM
  12. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    I find it interesting how many people claim the belt color doesn't matter.... until someone else says that they can't wear their belt color. All of a sudden its an issue... Where did my respect go? I earned this color belt?

    I always thought humility was the way to go. Yes, I have a black belt. The thing is that I have a lot more white belts than I have black belts. I have one black belt in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. I have a white belt in practically every other art out there. (except for Shotokan karate now) I keep a white belt in my bag. When I go to train in other arts, I put it on, no questions asked. I will let them know I have experience, and what that experience is in... but I wear a white belt... and act like one, on their mat. If some guy, with 6 months experience is correcting me, on their mat... great!!! I am here to learn their stuff. I find it much easier to learn new things, when not trying to do the "Look what I can do" routine. In fact, when I go cross train, which I do a lot, I go to places where they regularly hand me my tucus on a platter. If I go some place and start taking people apart or showing up the students there, then they don't have much to teach me... I go find some other place, where they own me. These places are where I want to train, these are places that have something to teach me. (fortunately, these places are quite easy for me to find...)

    The video at the bottom of the OPs article was great. You got your belt learning something different. You have emphasis in and expertise in a different thing. Not better, not worse, just different.

    I think we all put way to much emphasis on rank and belt... even when we think we don't. I think it would be great for everyone, to put on a white belt again, and go train somewhere new for a bit.

    The dojo we rent space out of has a bunch of instructors for the main art. They have classes morning and night, 7 days a week in their main art... so they need multiple instructors and one head instructor. One of the main requirements for being an instructor in this dojo, for the main art, is that they are regular students another another instructors class, in the main art. Even the head instructor must abide by this rule. I think its great. Everyone keeps a student perspective and everyone realizes that they have more to learn... even if they happen to be an instructor. At the end of class, we all take our belts off and become just regular people again...
     
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  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I wore white belt when I jointed in local YMCA Karate class. One day the instructor's young brother just got his Karate black belt in Dallas, came to Austin and challenged me in front of all my Karate classmates. I defeated the young fellow (I was 24 back then) in that challenge match. He started to cry in front of everybody. After that day, I no longer went to that Karate class.

    His brother (the Karate instructor) knew that I had many years of Kung Fu training before. Was it wrong for me to wear a white Karate belt to defeat a Karate black belt?

    One of my students had 15 years training with me. He doesn't want to take his black belt test. He enjoyed going to local MMA gym, wears white belt, and test his skill against others.

    Is that normal, or abnormal?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020 at 5:07 PM
  14. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It would be wrong if you were hiding that training from the karate instructor.

    It's more wrong that he returned and decided to challenge a white belt in front of everyone, unless there was more at play then you said in this post (possibly because you don't know about it). It's even more wrong that his response was to cry in front of everyone about it-how do you get to black belt without learning to lose gracefully?
     
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The instructor told his brother that I might know some Kung Fu, but I might not know how to use it. Back in the 70, Karate guys had no respect to Kung Fu guys and thought all Kung Fu guys were just dancers.

    That was before Bruce Lee's 1st King Fu movie even came out.
     
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  16. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Then yup, nothing on you. He wanted to embarass you in front of everyone, and instead embarrassed himself in front of everyone.
     
  17. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    It wouldn't offend me... I've started so many new styles that I sort of considered the "next new white belt" to be a promotion of sorts...

    Show up at the Hapkido school in a black belt from TKD (I did that), watched a class, then even when told I "could" wear my BB as I'd earned it and the instructor was super-respectful, I didn't and opted to wear the white until I could hit the cred and skills to promote up. Gross movements in TKD & HKD being so similar it was a swift climb through the color belt ranks. Mike (the instructor) told me that it helped him know where I was in the HKD stuff.


    It... uh... sort of did appear to be sand-bagging a bit when sparring class rolled around, though. I suppose that not too many white belts rip off tornado kicks or have a mean retreating jump spinning hook kick. Hmm... I did used to have one of those, didn't I. Pardon me while I think about the good old days for a bit. If I tried it right now, I'd most likely pull a hammy and/or a groin muscle.

    The above white belt again experience already in the bag, so to speak, it was simple & easy each time to just work thrrough the process again, even when the styles were kind of different (Muay Thai), or in completely different universes (judo & aikido).
     
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  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    What will happen when a BJJ black belt from another school wears white belt and defects a Kron Gracies's black belt in Kron Gracies gym?
    .
     
  19. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Keep in mind from the article, they are not wearing white belts, they're wearing black belts with a white stripe to denote they come from a different lineage. So no one would be surprised if a black belt with a white stripe beats one of their black belts-it should happen about half the time.
     
  20. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Hold on now, maybe the Karate guys you know had no respect for Kung Fu guys in the seventies, but we all did. Kung fu guys used to come up and teach us different things all the time after classes. We kind of felt like they were Santa Claus come to give us presents. There were some Fu Jow Pai guys, some Mantis guys, a White Eyebow guy if I remember correctly, and a Tiger Crane guy.

    Heck, I was even invited, and attended, a traditional Kung Fu wedding at Yao Li's Kung Fu Academy in Boston back in 83. It was really cool being there.

    And I used to always teach my guys, "Don't go hanging your kicks or punches, the Kung Fu guys will eat you up if you do."123
     

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