Internal art observation
- Thread starter Hendrik
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I found these videos to be informative thanks for posting them.
I'll need to listen to them again to understand them a little more. Yep I can be slow at times.
I'll need to listen to them again to understand them a little more. Yep I can be slow at times.
Yeah I echo that Hendrik. Basically I do struggle with accents, but I enjoying you're insight immensely. Keep them coming please 
Eric_H
Black Belt
Obviously I disagree with much of what Hendrik presents, but I'm still waiting to see any sort of application against a resisting partner to see if there's a grain of truth in all this hogwash. That ever going to happen?
Kwan Sau
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I'm with Eric on this one.
There is no doubt that in his own mind, Hendrik thinks he has discovered/uncovered something unique in his world of wing chun; but all we continue to see are examples of it being used in an unrealistic fashion.
Vajramusti
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I listened to Hendrik for a long long period but then finally gave up.
I did as you, but I really didn't give up ... did however woke up with the key board imprinted on my face.
An good sleep aid for sure, might try watching it with an tablet in bed.
Vajramusti
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A broken clock can be correct twice a day.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I am a Taijiquan guy who dabbles in Wing Chun so take this for what it is worth
I will say I enjoy your videos and it is interesting to hear this applied to Wing Chun, although I do not completely agree with everything you are saying from the internal perspective
Video 1
"form is emptiness emptiness is form", I interpret that differently than you do as it applies to Martial Arts but that is the stuff of another post. For the most part I agree with the meridian discussion on video one. But there is a difference between locking flow , which is done with over use of muscles (tenseness) and blocking meridian flow and not done if things are at the proper angle.
Video 2
Internal vs external. First all arts if done properly end up the same place they just start in differently; Waijia trains to increase natural human ability and Neijia trains to change rather than increase natural ability. But in the end they both end up in the same place
I disagree with judging internal vs external by the amount of movement if for no other reason yi, qi, li. Mind moves qi and qi moves muscle and there is no range limitation on that, just watch a Chen style form, Loajia Yilu and look for the fajin and it is all internal and can cover some serious distance. Look at bagua and Xingyi as well and you can see great distances covered and they are all internal.
I do agree internal comes from the root and goes to where her you want it (power comes form the root, is controlled by the waist and is directed to the extremities.
Video 3
Wing Chun people may not like what I am about to say, but I tend to look at Siu Lim Tao as one of the best Qigong exercises I have ever done and it is very good a internal, external and fajin training, or at least that is my approach to it, but what do you expect I'm a Taiji guy that also does a little qigong.
My Taijiquan Shigong said the same thing about practicing in the cold but he was more concerned about after training, not during. You need to dress warmly after training in could weather so you do not get chilled
Again yi, qi. li; the mind controls the qi and qi controls the muscles so you need to think, but thinking to hard can hurt more than help because you cannot force it, as soon as you try to force it...you fail.
I think I understand what you are saying now when you say locked wrist and I agree with that as it applies to flow, that is if I understand what you are saying and you are talking about flexing and tensing. But I am a bit confused at something you said, I think you meant to speak about muscle tension but you said intension and there are many many teachers but present and past in Taijiquan who would disagree with you if you are saying do not use intension for this.
I do agree that you should not work with qigong without a teacher
I will say I enjoy your videos and it is interesting to hear this applied to Wing Chun, although I do not completely agree with everything you are saying from the internal perspective
Video 1
"form is emptiness emptiness is form", I interpret that differently than you do as it applies to Martial Arts but that is the stuff of another post. For the most part I agree with the meridian discussion on video one. But there is a difference between locking flow , which is done with over use of muscles (tenseness) and blocking meridian flow and not done if things are at the proper angle.
Video 2
Internal vs external. First all arts if done properly end up the same place they just start in differently; Waijia trains to increase natural human ability and Neijia trains to change rather than increase natural ability. But in the end they both end up in the same place
I disagree with judging internal vs external by the amount of movement if for no other reason yi, qi, li. Mind moves qi and qi moves muscle and there is no range limitation on that, just watch a Chen style form, Loajia Yilu and look for the fajin and it is all internal and can cover some serious distance. Look at bagua and Xingyi as well and you can see great distances covered and they are all internal.
I do agree internal comes from the root and goes to where her you want it (power comes form the root, is controlled by the waist and is directed to the extremities.
Video 3
Wing Chun people may not like what I am about to say, but I tend to look at Siu Lim Tao as one of the best Qigong exercises I have ever done and it is very good a internal, external and fajin training, or at least that is my approach to it, but what do you expect I'm a Taiji guy that also does a little qigong.
My Taijiquan Shigong said the same thing about practicing in the cold but he was more concerned about after training, not during. You need to dress warmly after training in could weather so you do not get chilled
Again yi, qi. li; the mind controls the qi and qi controls the muscles so you need to think, but thinking to hard can hurt more than help because you cannot force it, as soon as you try to force it...you fail.
I think I understand what you are saying now when you say locked wrist and I agree with that as it applies to flow, that is if I understand what you are saying and you are talking about flexing and tensing. But I am a bit confused at something you said, I think you meant to speak about muscle tension but you said intension and there are many many teachers but present and past in Taijiquan who would disagree with you if you are saying do not use intension for this.
I do agree that you should not work with qigong without a teacher
Vajramusti
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SLT trains you-period. Both external and internal.
I didn't get that from Youtube!
I didn't get that from Youtube!
Danny T
Senior Master
SLT is very much an internal training aspect of wc.
Like Vajramusti stated SLT trains you-period.
There is a very strong gigong element within SLT and should be maintained as one progresses into other aspects of the system. Unfortunately many do not spend the amount of time in SLT to truly learn it. They quickly move onto CK never really learning SLT. They know the what the movements and positions are but never understand their bodies or what creates the movements and what the particular positions are used.
You will not find it on youtube but can with a knowledgeable instructor and time actually doing it.
Vajramusti
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-------Agree. Unfortunately people just learn the sequence of motions without understanding slt.It's real problem with the spread of wing chun
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I didn't get that from YouTube either
zuti car
Blue Belt
Internal, external , there is no difference , with a lot of training any given art will become internal . Using Chinese terminology and taoist and Buddhist proverbs to describe "internal" practice is just a way to make things more confusing and present yourself as a holder of some special, secret knowledge . "Internal" is just a way to describe a level of someone's skill , how well someone controls and uses his own body , that is all . Western boxing can be internal as well as any Chinese art and that is easy to see in a way how experienced boxers generate power for their punches , it is a form of Fa Jinn or whatever you want to call it , and it is just maximized efficiency in using certain way for power generation and maximized control of the body , that is all . There is no secrets , no special powers and like someone said it is designed to be used in a fight , if i does not work, then , it is a waist of time
Vajramusti
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---------------------------------------------------------------------Problems with two different posts-
1. Hendrik spams endlessly with his perspectives which cherry picks through known wing chun conceptrs and sells it with his own labels- snake body, prior,
force flow etc. again and again and again... making a laughing stock out of wing chun in many circles..
2. Zuti car's last post has some problems for me. Good movement can have
external and internal elements fused together. At one point taiji, baqua and
hsingI folks claimed they were the true internal art and others were external.
But if one avoids nationalism-several other arts also have a great deal of internal work. Lots of confusion exists on this point.Not a matter of secrets-
actually quite conceptual and empirical.
But not possible to cover it in short internet posts.
External work often begins with muscle and at some point people realize that it is not enough and begin to get internal. Some karate masters have been learning taichi for that reason-Kanazawa and others.
Internal work deemphasizes muscle work at first. With sufficient mastery of the internal- weapons work in taiji, baqua and hsing I -add additional strength .
Good wing chun has much internal work--dummy work, kwan and bjd are added only later. The YGKYM standing and one legged standing is wing chun equivalent of standing tree in taiji and yoga. And good wing chun training first involves control of the gravitational path and bio electrical energies in the first section of the slt.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater in internal/external discussion.
zuti car
Blue Belt
Definition of "internal" can cause a lot of confusion , different people have different ideas what is "internal" (and they all think they are right and others are wrong ) . From my point of view "internal " is just a term that describes biomechanical efficiency , certain way of using a body to achieve some goal (hit , kick , throw) . To put it simple ,the very basic idea of 'internal" means specific alignment of the skeleton and specific order in muscle contraction .This idea is foundation on which are built all other parts of "internal" arts , and each style has some specific approach and method of training , but basic idea is the same for everyone , and when i say idea i really mean idea , i am not saying that different arts are built on the same foundation . External is relying on pure muscle strength , body mass and inertia , like boxing , Japanese karate (with some exceptions) , ect .
Historically , before 1920's external vs. internal classification didn't exist just like "Wudang" vs. "Shaolin" classification didn't exist .
Historically , before 1920's external vs. internal classification didn't exist just like "Wudang" vs. "Shaolin" classification didn't exist .
I haven't got involved with any "internal vs. external" discussion for a long time. Since this is 2015, I'll just add my 2 cents into this discussion.
The force vector can go in different directions in the 3D space. Most "internal" guys like to talk about forward force vector. How about
- backward force vector? How will you use "internal" to pull such as to drag your opponent forward?
- upward force vector? How will you use "internal" to lift such as to lift your opponent off the ground?
- downward force vector? How will you use "internal" to press such as to drop your knee on top of your opponent's chest while he is on the ground?
- rotation force vector? How will you use "internal" to twist such as to throw a more powerful roundhouse kick?
When you apply those different force vectors, can you truly be able to tell whether you are using "internal" or "external"? What should an "internal" lift suppose to look like?
The force vector can go in different directions in the 3D space. Most "internal" guys like to talk about forward force vector. How about
- backward force vector? How will you use "internal" to pull such as to drag your opponent forward?
- upward force vector? How will you use "internal" to lift such as to lift your opponent off the ground?
- downward force vector? How will you use "internal" to press such as to drop your knee on top of your opponent's chest while he is on the ground?
- rotation force vector? How will you use "internal" to twist such as to throw a more powerful roundhouse kick?
When you apply those different force vectors, can you truly be able to tell whether you are using "internal" or "external"? What should an "internal" lift suppose to look like?
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Partial quote from Zuti Car post ... bio-mechanical efficiency.
As to what should an "internal" lift supposed to look like, that's another can of worms ... as what does WC look like in most of REAL fights ... another can of worms.
