The fourth internal art

[Xue Sheng]

It looks like some fun is being made of me? Like I said : two sifus, one wutang who i was lucky taught sun style and all 3 arts , of which I excelled in. And now I am apprentice to a REAL master, I’m not sure what kind of people others trained under, but I only train under boxers. I also clearly am attuned to other areas of the art others are either skeptical of, don’t believe in, or just don’t get it. As I have often seen the “experts” reply, “you just don’t get it.”

And most of the people replying don’t even know how to play Wing chun let alone understand the “secrets” of the art. WSLVT taught by a master is unparalleled. I wasn’t aware of the jealousy people had towards wing chun until going online.

And yes, if you don’t believe in miracles you definitely would see this as Pokémon. I have seen what you people have called magic tricks. Internal is clearly something not understood by others. That’s the truth

Not making fun, not jealous, I trained some Wing Chun and I rather like it
Have a nice day

 

[Mider]

1) The original point of this discussion started with the label "Internal" which stereotypically includes three martial arts: Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and Taijiquan. And the original poster considers Wing Chun as a "Fourth Internal art".

The reason Sun Lutang is relevant here is because he popularized the notion of "Internal" - albeit he didn't coin the term. Sun Lutang learned Xingyiquan in his twenties, Baguazhang for 3 years in his thirties, and Wu (Hao) Style Taijiquan in his fifties.

To go back to your question on "What does any of this matter exactly?", that's actually what some people replied with. Some replies remarked that the label "Internal" doesn't matter and isn't important. I have also replied with a video of Sun Lutang's granddaughter mentioning that his grandfather was against such categories.

My Pokemon analogy was poking fun at how ubiquitous it is for people to collect various Chinese martial arts and then claim to teach all of them - and the downfalls that many of them have. Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua are a common "trio" that many want to collect.

2) A tangent discussion point that stems from the original post is about using Qi for "pushing your opponent without a touch, turning out a light with a snap, levitation, etc"

There was disagreement on this point between those who think it's real/secretive and those who think it's fictional.

I’ve heard of some systema masters who can throw around MMA fighters. But there’s nothing supernatural about it

i Suppose there may be some people who can do amazing things, every culture mentions such people, saints, sages, holy men

but for the most part it’s best to stay within the realm of established physical reality.

 

[Callen]

And I say that having mastered Wing Chun in its entirety, and beyond.

Wait, what?

 

[Callen]

And most of the people replying don’t even know how to play Wing chun let alone understand the “secrets” of the art. WSLVT taught by a master is unparalleled. I wasn’t aware of the jealousy people had towards wing chun until going online.

Respectfully, Wong Shun Leung did not train the forms as a way of progressing any internal aspects of the system.

 

[Teapot]

I’ve heard of some systema masters who can throw around MMA fighters. But there’s nothing supernatural about it

i Suppose there may be some people who can do amazing things, every culture mentions such people, saints, sages, holy men

but for the most part it’s best to stay within the realm of established physical reality.

I agree with you that it's best to stay in the realm of established physical reality. My interests in Chinese martial arts are generally in its physical and martially practical side.

While I do not hold a belief in the supernatural, I attempt to not impose that belief onto others.

I had merely asked if Dream had met anyone who could do such things. And I had remarked that among the renowned practitioners of Taijiquan in the family lineages, I have never heard of any one of them doing such a feat.

The reason I do not deny its existence is because of the saying "You can't prove a negative". It's hard to prove that something does not exist. This is why the burden of proof is on the one asserting its existence. The proper path to take is to demand evidence of its existence.

The best I can provide is what's known as "evidence of absence". I can derive a hypothesis from the lack of evidence. I can take a pool of renowned practitioners such as Chen Fa'ke, Feng Zhiqiang, Chen Zhaokui, Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou, Yang Chengfu, etc.... and notice the absence of stories of any of them being able to levitate.

The closest skillset that I can think of would be Qinggong - Qinggong - Wiki which is the skill to be very light on your feet to where you can run up vertical surfaces or steep slopes and jump very high.

I remember hearing about one training method that includes strapping weights to your ankles and then trying to jump out of a pit.

But I don't consider that supernatural.

 

[O'Malley]

I’ve heard of some systema masters who can throw around MMA fighters. But there’s nothing supernatural about it

i Suppose there may be some people who can do amazing things, every culture mentions such people, saints, sages, holy men

but for the most part it’s best to stay within the realm of established physical reality.

FWIW I've met people who can do pretty weird things like put pressure on your shoulders through lightly touching your hand, physically move the flesh of their torso around the bones or bound in the air from a kneeling position with no windup. None of them claim it's supernatural, though.

 

[O'Malley]

Wait, what?

Good point. At what point has one "mastered" a martial art?

 

[Mider]

FWIW I've met people who can do pretty weird things like put pressure on your shoulders through lightly touching your hand, physically move the flesh of their torso around the bones or bound in the air from a kneeling position with no windup. None of them claim it's supernatural, though.

It seems to simply be a more advanced control of the bodies functions

 

[Oily Dragon]

Again, I’m not interested in talking to you. Dominick Izzo has soared with boxers, JKD. and there are others

Oh Dominic Izzo has so not "soared" with boxers. Seriously he's a terrible example of Wing Chun.

You know how you spot these guys? They flood the Web with videos about how to use Wing Chun to defeat X.

Very slowly and without any resistance whatsoever.

yes you WC makes you be unable to win boxing trophies even though some of Bruce Lees students were boxers

Bruce Lee didn't even learn all of Wing Chun, he gave up on it to learn, amongst other things, boxing.

Jeet Kune Do contains a smidge of Wing Chun, and even still that art is also underrepresented in full contact competiton.

As I said, these discussions are pointless, worse you do more to harm peoples exploration of the arts.

blocked

Not really. I can talk for hours and hours about not only the history of Wing Chun, but also the fist sets, practical applications, and the recent history of Wing Chun in contact sports.

Guess which one is the shortest convo?

Seriously, Wing Chun talk is cheap in 2023. Either you can post a video of a capable fighter or you can list off a bunch of names and places and that's what gets the "debate" nowhere.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Wait, what?

It's a very small art compared to say, Five Animal Five Element Fist.

 

[Teapot]

Good point. At what point has one "mastered" a martial art?

I think the word "master" might be a translation issue:

A lot of people use "master" to mean something like a "Chess master" or a "Chess grandmaster".

But in the context of Chinese martial arts, Shifu refers to a relationship between the teacher and his disciples. The connotation is more like a "master-apprentice" relationship.

If someone is your teacher, but you are not his disciple, then I think "Laoshi" is more appropriate to describe that teacher's relationship with you. If you Baishi to a teacher, then you are officially his disciple, and then you may say that he is your shifu.

But the usage of these terms has been very strange to me. For example, here is a real sentence from a real school website: "Sigung (Master) Richard Clear has studied Tai Chi and Chi Kung in the U.S. and in China."

Doesn't Sigung refer to the teacher of your teacher - or rather... the Shifu for your Shifu?

What does it mean when you call yourself sigung? You are the teacher of your own teacher of yourself? Or, is he trying to say that his students have students? He uses Sigung as if it were... a status of achievement - as if he got a 9th-degree black belt.

I have watched documentaries where the word "sensei" got translated into English subtitles as "master". I don't speak Japanese, but that seems... wrong.

I'm just speculating here, but I feel like a lot of talk on "mastery" is born from a linguistic error from Chinese to English.

 

[_Simon_]

Imagine Pikachu with a Gwan Do.

No Gwan Do, but don't mess with Pikachu!

 

[Callen]

It's a very small art compared to say, Five Animal Five Element Fist.

That doesn't address your declaration. The length of a given Wing Chun curriculum has little to do with the ability to develop skill.

"Having mastered Wing Chun in its entirety, and beyond", is quite a bold claim. How did you measure that exactly? And what does "beyond" mean in that statement?

 

[Oily Dragon]

That doesn't address your declaration. The length of a given Wing Chun curriculum has little to do with the ability to develop skill.

"Having mastered Wing Chun in its entirety, and beyond", is quite a bold claim. How did you measure that exactly? And what does "beyond" mean in that statement?

Well I was half joking but why not.

Mastery of a skill is something pretty easy to measure. You either can or you can't.

I learned that with cooking.

There is really nothing in Wing Chun that I haven't learned. A lot of it is so common to other arts. No surprises left, unless levitation and chi blasts are indeed part of the higher levels.

I view all of the Wing Chun fist sets as basic now, compared to say, Tiger Crane Paired Fist or the Shaolin Iron Wire.

 

[Callen]

Well I was half joking but why not.

Yeah, that was my hope. But sometimes I can't tell when you're joking.

I view all of the Wing Chun fist sets as basic now, compared to say, Tiger Crane Paired Fist or the Shaolin Iron Wire.

To which Wing Chun fist sets are you referring?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think the word "master" might be a translation issue:
View attachment 30391

A lot of people use "master" to mean something like a "Chess master" or a "Chess grandmaster".

But in the context of Chinese martial arts, Shifu refers to a relationship between the teacher and his disciples. The connotation is more like a "master-apprentice" relationship.

If someone is your teacher, but you are not his disciple, then I think "Laoshi" is more appropriate to describe that teacher's relationship with you. If you Baishi to a teacher, then you are officially his disciple, and then you may say that he is your shifu.

But the usage of these terms has been very strange to me. For example, here is a real sentence from a real school website: "Sigung (Master) Richard Clear has studied Tai Chi and Chi Kung in the U.S. and in China."

Doesn't Sigung refer to the teacher of your teacher - or rather... the Shifu for your Shifu?

What does it mean when you call yourself sigung? You are the teacher of your own teacher of yourself? Or, is he trying to say that his students have students? He uses Sigung as if it were... a status of achievement - as if he got a 9th-degree black belt.

I have watched documentaries where the word "sensei" got translated into English subtitles as "master". I don't speak Japanese, but that seems... wrong.

I'm just speculating here, but I feel like a lot of talk on "mastery" is born from a linguistic error from Chinese to English.

Ironically I have had a discussion with some of "Shigong" Clear's students about that title. I even told them it means teachers teacher so by using that he is saying he taught his teacher, who taught him. This discussion when on for about 15 minutes until they told me I didn't understand how he was using it..... to which I responded, I know exactly how he is using it, he is using it wrong..... conversation ended

 

[O'Malley]

No Gwan Do, but don't mess with Pikachu!

View attachment 30392

Meet his evolution: Pikaboo.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yeah, that was my hope. But sometimes I can't tell when you're joking.

I'm hopeless and honesty this is also how I cook and serve food, with jokes. The best accomplishment to grub is laughter.

Sometimes it upsets people, but I'm always a good sport.

To which Wing Chun fist sets are you referring?

All of them, empty hand sets, dummy. The weapons like Mother Daughter knives, i learned from other styles that spend more time on them.

Actually since we're on that train again, I have to say a lot of the WC schools I've seen don't even touch weapons anymore.

Like, everyone says they can defend themselves with Wing Chun. Good luck if I have double knives on me.

Which I never do, because I prefer to grapple vs bleed people out. But if I did ...

 

[Oily Dragon]

I think the word "master" might be a translation issue:
View attachment 30391

A lot of people use "master" to mean something like a "Chess master" or a "Chess grandmaster".

But in the context of Chinese martial arts, Shifu refers to a relationship between the teacher and his disciples. The connotation is more like a "master-apprentice" relationship.

If someone is your teacher, but you are not his disciple, then I think "Laoshi" is more appropriate to describe that teacher's relationship with you. If you Baishi to a teacher, then you are officially his disciple, and then you may say that he is your shifu.

But the usage of these terms has been very strange to me. For example, here is a real sentence from a real school website: "Sigung (Master) Richard Clear has studied Tai Chi and Chi Kung in the U.S. and in China."

Doesn't Sigung refer to the teacher of your teacher - or rather... the Shifu for your Shifu?

What does it mean when you call yourself sigung? You are the teacher of your own teacher of yourself? Or, is he trying to say that his students have students? He uses Sigung as if it were... a status of achievement - as if he got a 9th-degree black belt.

I have watched documentaries where the word "sensei" got translated into English subtitles as "master". I don't speak Japanese, but that seems... wrong.

I'm just speculating here, but I feel like a lot of talk on "mastery" is born from a linguistic error from Chinese to English.

This happens to be one of the biggest connections between Wing Chun and Shaolin Temple, the use of shi/si as an honorable salute to a master, his uncle, his cousin, his wife. To this day Shaolin masters use it, the current Abbott is Shi Yongxin.

if you are already Chinese, I don't need to tell you this.

It would be like trying to explain to anyone that Mok Gwai Lan is my great kung fu grandmother (she is). In formal lineage terms, it rolls of the page. So she is just "si gung mo Gwai Lan", gung means "over all" or "universal".

 

[Callen]

Actually since we're on that train again, I have to say a lot of the WC schools I've seen don't even touch weapons anymore.

It's unfortunate. We don't have to look too hard for examples of how the system is getting watered-down the further it gets from the source.