The fourth internal art

[dream]

I wanted to just offer my view of internal arts and wing chun.

Studying the 3 treasures is the foundation of my Gung fu. Bagua is an amazing art built on circular motion . The internal power emanate from the hip, twisting is the key. Hsing I, oppositely , is based on the spear movements, and it works on circular or angular attacks in a linear fashion , meaning it has simultaneous things going on. It’s common with wing chun in that respect as well as the “intent” aspects. Tai chi was a beautifully designed system with both bagua and hsing i in mind. Some say they developed seperate but I see tai chi as the fusion of the other two. The internal arts aren’t just “internal “ in how I have read it used often . The higher states of consciousness do allow you to manipulate chi in a real way (I’m talking pushing your opponent without a touch, turning out a light with a snap , levitation, etc though those are extreme examples most don’t attain or believe). My experience is neigong and chikung are indeed miraculous and nothing can compare to what these arts produce except maybe yoga but yoga doesn’t have the self defense aspect

Point being : wing chun took some of the Taoist arts , put in all of the shaolin arts, and they devised a nearly perfect system from a-z. It is a complete system devoid of extras because you have the freedom to do anything you want . People think wing Chun is limited but it’s actually the most expansive system I have tried. Sure wutang technically collectively has hundreds of techniques and subsequently very long forms and countless weapons (well something like 2 dozen right Xue?) so mastering Taoist arts really requires a lifetime of practice with the same master

Wing chun is efficient in that it has 6 forms: 3 empty hand, 2 weapons and a dummy form. They are only about 3 minutes long give or take a minute and they seem simple. But they are building slowly, and when you reach BG the internal art of wing chun is revealed

Structurally the internal power from the hip is not understated. It is almost hipwork. But keep practice and the form becomes meditative . Chi sau is one interesting two man exceerxise where chi kung is felt like with push hands . There is an external form and an Internal movement of chi.

In my opinion, wutang is the original 3 internal arts. But shaolin does have at least one in wing chun. You have to feel it to understand but wing chun is the fourth internal art, and it is Chan which is very cool , rather than Taoist, making it a bit more universal

It’s amazing really that not many have said it definitively. It is not Taoist or wutang but den mak is one welll known example of internal nei gong of wing chun

Any wing chun guys out there ever see this way?

 

[Teapot]

The internal arts aren’t just “internal “ in how I have read it used often . The higher states of consciousness do allow you to manipulate chi in a real way (I’m talking pushing your opponent without a touch, turning out a light with a snap , levitation, etc though those are extreme examples most don’t attain or believe).

So, are those extreme examples you listed simply based on your reading? Have you met anyone who can do any of that in real life?

In Taijiquan, I have never heard of any renowned practitioner who can do any of that. I have never heard of Chen Fa'ke, his disciples, Yang Luchan, his sons, his grandsons, etc... being able to do any of that.

Some people showcase the power to levitate... but it's a magician's trick:

It is a complete system devoid of extras because you have the freedom to do anything you want . People think wing Chun is limited but it’s actually the most expansive system I have tried.

People are what they train. In a ruleless environment, having the freedom to do anything you want applies to everyone. But you are influenced by what you train, your habits, and muscle memories.

One can say that they have the freedom to do a cartwheel kick. But if they never train for it, then they're probably not going to be pulling it off in combat.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First, 2 other arts already exist that could be labeled Internal, and I think they are, already exist, Liuhebafa and Yiquan/Dachengquan.

Second, why, who cares if it is internal or not, it simply does not matter. Train and don’t worry about it. But by definition it is not, by multiple definitions it is not actually.

However I have trained some Wing Chun, I like it and it most certainly has its internal aspects, but big deal so what who cares. Wing Chun is a great martial art, it is simple and direct, why ov er complicate it.

But you should also know that Chen Fa Ke (who invented the Xinjiayilu and Xinjiaerlu) didn’t care about the internal label. He just cared he was training his families style. So Internal, external did not matter to him, why should we care.

No touch, levitation…. Nope….. Beijing University of Traditional Chinese Medicine has done extensive studies on internal qi and qi projection and so far their view of qi projection (no touch) is that it fake. My view of those demonstration the no touch knock down/out is they have done one thing successfully…taught their students how to fall down on cue. And you should note they ONLY demonstrate this on THIER students. Got a story from Yang Wing Ming about that, but I’m not in the mood to type that much

Xingyiquan can circle, especially if you train the Wudang version. Hebei, Shang and Shanxi are loaded with very small circles, and all can turn on a dime. Some style of Baguazhang have a linear form, and Taijiquan is absolutely not a fusion of Xingyiquan and Baguazhang, that is unless you are talking Sun style which is a combination of Wu/Hao taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. Chen style is likely (and historically) a combination of Taoist philosophy, possibly some taoist art, Long fist and whatever the Chen family martial art was when the came up with Taijiquan. Yang comes from Chen, Wu comes from Yang, Wu/Hao comes from Chen, and Yang, Sun comes from Wu/Hao plus Bagua plus Xingyiquan

Wing Chun history is rather murky, as are most histories of most Chinese martial arts. However I do believe the link to Shaolin. Not sure about any link what-so-ever to Taoist arts. Could be a Chan Buddhist link, some of the teachers of it may have been Buddhist, not sure how Buddhist that make Wing Chun…. I taught Taijiquan, did not make me or my students Taoist.

Big problem with Chinese martial arts history is its murkiness. And then you have word of mouth passed down from teacher to student, which tends to pass on a historically unverifiable history. Many Chinese masters of old, who were rather skillful, but would claim their art came from a famous person of the past in order to gain more legitimacy when in fact there is no link what-so-ever. For example Xingyiquan’s link to General Yue Fei is highly questionable as is the Taiji origin story that claims the originator was a Taoist monk named Zhang Sanfeng. Actually there is no historically verifiable evidence of Zhang Sanfeng ever existing.

So don’t worry about internal or external, it does not matter, just train

 

[dream]

Actually yes I do know of at least on person personally who can use their chi in such manners. @Teapot I also met someone who said he knew a taichi master who can also do it

And @Xue Sheng you’re right it doesn’t matter. I have my master/Gung fu family, my son has his dojo, training is what matters .

But I am just talking and learning

I heard of Liuhebafa in passing , usually people asking if anyone has heard or seen it , but I have never heard from a practitioner or read much about it. and from what I was told I quan was related to hsing i quan , if that’s true I also have no ideas . Partly why I asked as well. Without knowing it or seeing it its just like hearing a legend of tai chi or wing chun as you do keenly made an example of

But still my interest still goes beyond the form and theory . In fact the esoteric practice and goal of martial arts , at least Chinese internal arts, is enlightenment or immortality. Such miraculous feats are natural offshoots of higher levels

Chi is as real as air, water, light. Manipulation of chi, or chi Gung or nei Gung, is also possible. I’m sure you would agree. But maybe you don’t believe in the “occult” aspect of the art or maybe you don’t care? I don’t know

But Clearly if you two guys don’t believe in it or care about it, either way , it doesn’t matter. You two are the most prolific and scholarly of the cma posters I have read so if this thread is a non starter with you two it’s a dead issue anyway and Xue kind of added the 4th, 5th internal schools, and wing chun could be a 6th, but really doesn’t matter

I don’t mean to make a topic that causes disturbance.

(Fwiw I was talking sun as I am sun Lu tang lineage; And also wing chun doesn’t fall into any category neatly except that it’s a shaolin Gung fu, but as far as “by definition” wing chun doesn’t fall into external, although it does begin that way , again it seems my understanding of things is a little different , but I came to learn from people , not give my opinions or make historical info up)

 

[Teapot]

A joke I tell to myself is that a lot of people view Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang as the "Three Legendary Pokemon". As the famous Pokemon catchphrase goes: Gotta Catch ‘Em All!

Usually, people who have the "Gotta Catch ‘Em All!" attitude just so happens to suck at every single one of them - or is mainly good at 1 of them which tends to be the one they started with and practiced the longest in.

They're so proud that they caught all three, but their three Legendary Pokemon are only at Level 1. A strong Pikachu would wipe out their entire team.

When I think of the really good practitioners in each of those arts, generally speaking, they only practice that one art. Generally speaking, they were either the son of someone in a family art or they Baishi under someone in that lineage to essentially become their "apprentice". People who are neither the son under a family art or didn't Baishi under someone technically do not have a lineage.

It's like learning a Skilled Trade. Maybe you become an apprentice under a blacksmith to learn the trade of blacksmithing. There can be "trade secrets" that outsiders (non-apprentices) do not have the privilege to learn.

It's not a causation but a correlation. Someone can be good at more than one Chinese martial art. But the correlation is that among those who do practice multiple arts, they tend to suck at most - if not all of them.

 

[dream]

I got my black belt before I turned 18 so I don’t really consider karate part of my “marital vocabulary anymore” but my wutang sifu was pretty adamant that each of the 3 had to have equal attention, but you had to specialize in one. We were sun Lu tang lineage so that’s all I know; and we didn’t have to do all 3. It was my choice to do them and I was lucky they were available, I was so good that I became “special student/closed door” (. I stayed with him for 20+ years but he had students double that length)

He retired and moved away and my talent exceeded my sihings (it’s hard to learn from someone you can easily beat with very little effort)

And FWIW, I am apprentice to my master , in other words I am todai to my sifu. I am being trained to teach so that I will inherit the lineage as I’m dai sihing or whatever it’s called, I don’t know Chinese

Not to sound bombastic but my gungfu is not your average level, but I don’t say that to anyone openly. I only say that here since not too many people know how hard CMA is. I only had two masters (wutang and wing chun) and both had me quickly progress

So really my black belt got my ready for wutang. And I would’ve mastered wutang but my Sifu retired. I searched for years for a new master and style and I was lucky my master was looking for someone with my ability. Old school discipleship

 

[Oily Dragon]

Tai chi was a beautifully designed system with both bagua and hsing i in mind. Some say they developed seperate but I see tai chi as the fusion of the other two.

This is sort of backwards. Tai Chi Chuan as an empty handed art, predates both Xing Yi and the 8 Trigram Fist. Even though people rely on modern images for Tai Chi Chuan, the literature goes back very, very far beyond Sun Lutang.

I'd draw a picture for you but I have no artistic abilities.

Think of it this way: Chinese gymnastics have had a Tai Chi influence for over a 1000 years, and possibly 5,000. By the Ming Dynasty, that influence had pervaded Shaolin, to the point where physical gymnastics took precedence over weapons training, and that's where empty handed fist sets we practice today come from.

1600-1700s onward, was the starting age of all empty handed training, which makes the timeline a lot clearer.

The internal arts aren’t just “internal “ in how I have read it used often . The higher states of consciousness do allow you to manipulate chi in a real way (I’m talking pushing your opponent without a touch, turning out a light with a snap , levitation, etc though those are extreme examples most don’t attain or believe).

If this were actually possible, one of these dudes would rule Earth by now.

Point being : wing chun took some of the Taoist arts , put in all of the shaolin arts, and they devised a nearly perfect system from a-z. It is a complete system devoid of extras because you have the freedom to do anything you want . People think wing Chun is limited but it’s actually the most expansive system I have tried.

Wing Chun really only contains a subset of Shaolin arts. I think that's part of the modern problem with Wing Chun, lack of depth compared to other styles. I think earlier Wing Chun was more even with styles like Choy Li Fut or Hung Ga Kuen, but over time lost material over and over.

So Wing Chun was not necessarily an exercise in efficiency, as much as lost time and memory.

In my opinion, wutang is the original 3 internal arts. But shaolin does have at least one in wing chun. You have to feel it to understand but wing chun is the fourth internal art, and it is Chan which is very cool , rather than Taoist, making it a bit more universal

Wing Chun is both Daoist and Buddhist. Bruce Lee kind of made this point when he named Jeet Kune Do.

As far as "internal" arts, remember that is a construct newer than the United States.

IF I had a make a timeline of internal arts, it would go Daoist Daoyin - Shaolin Weapons (600AD+) - Tai Chi Chuan (1000AD) - Shaolin Empty Fist (1600AD) - Xing Yi/Bagua (1700AD) - "Internal" (1900AD).

 

[Oily Dragon]

wing chun doesn’t fall into any category neatly except that it’s a shaolin Gung fu, but as far as “by definition” wing chun doesn’t fall into external, although it does begin that way , again it seems my understanding of things is a little different , but I came to learn from people , not give my opinions or make historical info up)

Here's something to consider.

A lot of Wing Chun students think they are masters of kung fu, like they found the real kung fu.

But practically all of them fail to meet either the standards of "external" kung fu (physically) or "internal kung fu" (physically).

We have had actual pro boxers here on MT talk about stuff they learned in Wing Chun that worked in boxing rings. Number of times "internal" was mentioned?

But even so, some people understand what Terrible Tim meant. It was not blowing out candles, or spooking people at a distance.

 

[Teapot]

Fwiw I was talking sun as I am sun Lu tang lineage; And also wing chun doesn’t fall into any category neatly except that it’s a shaolin Gung fu, but as far as “by definition” wing chun doesn’t fall into external, although it does begin that way , again it seems my understanding of things is a little different , but I came to learn from people , not give my opinions or make historical info up)

Sun Wanrong, the granddaughter of Sun Lutang says here: "However, Sun Lutang was against this classification. There is no difference as they all are martial studies right? Their underlying meaning is the same. Only their techniques differ. One might have a hard expression while another may have a soft expression. They have differences in appearance. So, my grandfather did not agree with the “internal” and “external” classifications. However, this is generally used today by the general public with three styles representing the “internal” namely Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji."

Based on what is said here, would you agree that even Sun Lutang didn't like these classifications?

 

[dream]

Thanks for the video. I don’t agree with everything a master says just because he is my great sigung. I don’t know if he was an immortal. I don’t know his spiritual attainment or consciousness . I find it strange that no one believes in chi. Again I’m not your average martial artist and I definitely can give anyone, I mean anyone, a very hard match; so it looks like my experience is very different than some of you. I guess I’ll leave it at that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually yes I do know of at least on person personally who can use their chi in such manners. @Teapot I also met someone who said he knew a taichi master who can also do it

And @Xue Sheng you’re right it doesn’t matter. I have my master/Gung fu family, my son has his dojo, training is what matters .

But I am just talking and learning

I heard of Liuhebafa in passing , usually people asking if anyone has heard or seen it , but I have never heard from a practitioner or read much about it. and from what I was told I quan was related to hsing i quan , if that’s true I also have no ideas . Partly why I asked as well. Without knowing it or seeing it its just like hearing a legend of tai chi or wing chun as you do keenly made an example of

But still my interest still goes beyond the form and theory . In fact the esoteric practice and goal of martial arts , at least Chinese internal arts, is enlightenment or immortality. Such miraculous feats are natural offshoots of higher levels

Chi is as real as air, water, light. Manipulation of chi, or chi Gung or nei Gung, is also possible. I’m sure you would agree. But maybe you don’t believe in the “occult” aspect of the art or maybe you don’t care? I don’t know

But Clearly if you two guys don’t believe in it or care about it, either way , it doesn’t matter. You two are the most prolific and scholarly of the cma posters I have read so if this thread is a non starter with you two it’s a dead issue anyway and Xue kind of added the 4th, 5th internal schools, and wing chun could be a 6th, but really doesn’t matter

I don’t mean to make a topic that causes disturbance.

(Fwiw I was talking sun as I am sun Lu tang lineage; And also wing chun doesn’t fall into any category neatly except that it’s a shaolin Gung fu, but as far as “by definition” wing chun doesn’t fall into external, although it does begin that way , again it seems my understanding of things is a little different , but I came to learn from people , not give my opinions or make historical info up)

I am sorry, I mean no offense, but that strikes me a complete Wuxia (武俠). Qi projection, Immortality and enlightenment does not come from training Internal martial arts. Been training it for over 30 years. Trained a lot of qigong as well and I have meant and trained with a lot of old Chinese guys and enlightenment and immortality never was part of anything they were teaching or had done, beyond discussions of mythology.

Note: Wǔxiá (武俠) literally means "martial heroes", is a genre of Chinese fiction concerning the adventures of martial artists in ancient China.

 

[Mider]

Thanks for the video. I don’t agree with everything a master says just because he is my great sigung. I don’t know if he was an immortal. I don’t know his spiritual attainment or consciousness . I find it strange that no one believes in chi. Again I’m not your average martial artist and I definitely can give anyone, I mean anyone, a very hard match; so it looks like my experience is very different than some of you. I guess I’ll leave it at that.

I think you should train what makes you happy. there are many good practitioners of WC all around.

if you train WC just make sure the teacher is good and trains you for many situations and against many kinds of fighters

in my experience, you'll find this place to be an echo chamber. Ive seen WC masters spar with boxers, etc.

in the end what will debating online accomplish anyway. As for internal arts, there are plenty of practitioners and arts that recognize its value. Why should i bother naming them, itll judt be ignored as most here are experts in their own minds

 

[Oily Dragon]

I think you should train what makes you happy. there are many good practitioners of WC all around.

if you train WC just make sure the teacher is good and trains you for many situations and against many kinds of fighters

in my experience, you'll find this place to be an echo chamber. Ive seen WC masters spar with boxers, etc.

in the end what will debating online accomplish anyway. As for internal arts, there are plenty of practitioners and arts that recognize its value. Why should i bother naming them, itll judt be ignored as most here are experts in their own minds

There are no Wing Chun "masters" who can spar with and/or compete with boxers.

If there was/were, a Wing Chun master would have at least taken a boxing trophy home or two, in pro or amateur boxing. Doesn't happen.

The truth is, modern boxing is far superior to training and fighting than the vast majority of Wing Chun instruction available, worldwide.

And I say that having mastered Wing Chun in its entirety, and beyond.

 

[_Simon_]

A joke I tell to myself is that a lot of people view Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang as the "Three Legendary Pokemon". As the famous Pokemon catchphrase goes: Gotta Catch ‘Em All!

Usually, people who have the "Gotta Catch ‘Em All!" attitude just so happens to suck at every single one of them - or is mainly good at 1 of them which tends to be the one they started with and practiced the longest in.

They're so proud that they caught all three, but their three Legendary Pokemon are only at Level 1. A strong Pikachu would wipe out their entire team.

When I think of the really good practitioners in each of those arts, generally speaking, they only practice that one art. Generally speaking, they were either the son of someone in a family art or they Baishi under someone in that lineage to essentially become their "apprentice". People who are neither the son under a family art or didn't Baishi under someone technically do not have a lineage.

It's like learning a Skilled Trade. Maybe you become an apprentice under a blacksmith to learn the trade of blacksmithing. There can be "trade secrets" that outsiders (non-apprentices) do not have the privilege to learn.

It's not a causation but a correlation. Someone can be good at more than one Chinese martial art. But the correlation is that among those who do practice multiple arts, they tend to suck at most - if not all of them.

Just gotta tip my hat to the Pokemon analogy. Gold! 👍🏻

 

[Oily Dragon]

Imagine Pikachu with a Gwan Do.

 

[dream]

It looks like some fun is being made of me? Like I said : two sifus, one wutang who i was lucky taught sun style and all 3 arts , of which I excelled in. And now I am apprentice to a REAL master, I’m not sure what kind of people others trained under, but I only train under boxers. I also clearly am attuned to other areas of the art others are either skeptical of, don’t believe in, or just don’t get it. As I have often seen the “experts” reply, “you just don’t get it.”

And most of the people replying don’t even know how to play Wing chun let alone understand the “secrets” of the art. WSLVT taught by a master is unparalleled. I wasn’t aware of the jealousy people had towards wing chun until going online.

And yes, if you don’t believe in miracles you definitely would see this as Pokémon. I have seen what you people have called magic tricks. Internal is clearly something not understood by others. That’s the truth

 

[Mider]

There are no Wing Chun "masters" who can spar with and/or compete with boxers.

If there was/were, a Wing Chun master would have at least taken a boxing trophy home or two, in pro or amateur boxing. Doesn't happen.

The truth is, modern boxing is far superior to training and fighting than the vast majority of Wing Chun instruction available, worldwide.

And I say that having mastered Wing Chun in its entirety, and beyond.

Again, I’m not interested in talking to you. Dominick Izzo has soared with boxers, JKD. and there are others

yes you WC makes you be unable to win boxing trophies even though some of Bruce Lees students were boxers

as I said, these discussions are pointless, worse you do more to harm peoples exploration of the arts.

blocked

 

[Teapot]

It looks like some fun is being made of me? Like I said : two sifus, one wutang who i was lucky taught sun style and all 3 arts , of which I excelled in. And now I am apprentice to a REAL master, I’m not sure what kind of people others trained under, but I only train under boxers. I also clearly am attuned to other areas of the art others are either skeptical of, don’t believe in, or just don’t get it. As I have often seen the “experts” reply, “you just don’t get it.”

And most of the people replying don’t even know how to play Wing chun let alone understand the “secrets” of the art. WSLVT taught by a master is unparalleled. I wasn’t aware of the jealousy people had towards wing chun until going online.

And yes, if you don’t believe in miracles you definitely would see this as Pokémon. I have seen what you people have called magic tricks. Internal is clearly something not understood by others. That’s the truth

I wasn't aiming at you specifically regarding my Pokemon analogy which had absolutely nothing to do with miracles.

I truly meant what I said as a general thing. I had a few Youtubers in mind who do Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji - completely unrelated to Sun Lutang's line. I also had some other schools in mind that claim to teach all three of those in addition to like five other martial arts.

It would not surprise me if Sun Lutang's legacy played a significant role in starting this trend of people, who are not in Sun Lutang's lineage, hunting down teacher after teacher to collect Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji - if not more martial arts beyond that.

In my view, a certain YouTuber's Xingyiquan is probably his best skillset, but his Taijiquan is probably his worst skillset. Another YouTuber I have in mind is just a flat-out fraud who sucks at every martial art he claims to teach.

And there is this bias where people blindly believe that so-and-so is a "master" of every single martial art they claim to teach. They're not comfortable with the idea of a "master" being significantly better at one martial art than another even though the math would agree with it.

To give an example, there's a certain (and famous) teacher who learned one martial art for like 2 years but another martial art for over a decade. He is most famous for the martial arts that he trained for like 2 years. But someone who learned under him has publically said that he knows people who regretted not having learned his other martial art which he learned for over a decade.

And from my observations, it's also a matter of habit. Someone from a different style or lineage of Taijiquan may come in with many years of habits that the current school would want them to eliminate or change.

There's one well-known guy whose Chen Taijiquan looks very influenced by Baijiquan. And that's probably because he's more of a Bajiquan guy than he is a Chen Taijiquan guy. His Taijiquan applications look like Bajiquan applications instead of Taijiquan applications.

 

[Mider]

What does any of this matter exactly?

maybe I’m missing the point of the discussion

 

[Teapot]

What does any of this matter exactly?

maybe I’m missing the point of the discussion

1) The original point of this discussion started with the label "Internal" which stereotypically includes three martial arts: Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and Taijiquan. And the original poster considers Wing Chun as a "Fourth Internal art".

The reason Sun Lutang is relevant here is because he popularized the notion of "Internal" - albeit he didn't coin the term. Sun Lutang learned Xingyiquan in his twenties, Baguazhang for 3 years in his thirties, and Wu (Hao) Style Taijiquan in his fifties.

To go back to your question on "What does any of this matter exactly?", that's actually what some people replied with. Some replies remarked that the label "Internal" doesn't matter and isn't important. I have also replied with a video of Sun Lutang's granddaughter mentioning that his grandfather was against such categories.

My Pokemon analogy was poking fun at how ubiquitous it is for people to collect various Chinese martial arts and then claim to teach all of them - and the downfalls that many of them have. Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua are a common "trio" that many want to collect.

2) A tangent discussion point that stems from the original post is about using Qi for "pushing your opponent without a touch, turning out a light with a snap, levitation, etc"

There was disagreement on this point between those who think it's real/secretive and those who think it's fictional.