Internal art observation

[jks9199]

Folks,
Keep it friendly and courteous before some Moderator type has to deal with this. You can disagree without being rude or insulting about it.

 

[Danny T]

Nope internal and external practice in Chinese martial art doesn't end up in the same place.

I don't claim to be all knowing of things external or internal however, I do know that Neijia training came from high level Waijia training. Neijia came from Waijia and they have the same goals long term even though the path and method of getting there is different. If the goal is the same and one came out of the other then they must end up in the same place.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1. Anyone can have their believe . That got nothing to do with facts..

And that is what I am saying you are dong, you believe you are right, and on some points you are, but on others you are way off. If in fact in the 3rd video, where you commented on "intent": and said it was not good. If you actually meant to say "intent" you are very wrong.

2. Anyone who train in internal art knows it can't be external training..

And anyone who has read my posts knows I never said that, I never said they were the same, I said they end up in the same place. I will assume you do not understand what that means due to a language barrier so I will explain. They start differently they are trained differently in the beginning, but as time goes on and as one trains them and if they train them properly they end up the same, meaning the person that trains them. And I will also add I have never understood some peoples obsession Neijia or the need to be associated with it.

3. You and I are not the standard reference. Ancient Chinese documents and practice are. Your description on internal and external doesn't fit the traditional practice.

I never said I was the standard and you keep referring to the Ancient Chinese documents that I think you feel you have exclusive right to read. But here is the thing I told you "I have read some of them" My teachers have studied them and they taught me. And all of this leads me to saying some of what you are saying, not all, but some of what you are saying is just not right

So other than rehashing the same things over and over again do you have anything else because this is getting tedious

 

[Transk53]

Me, this thread is a little flamey now it would seem to me

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let me see if I can redirect this to a more positive conversation.

I mean no insult by this but it is possible that you do know what you are talking about but you don’t know what you are saying. I deal with this every single day in my house; the use of the wrong English word or words or the misunderstanding of the English word by a native Chinese speaker that absolutely changes everything. I also deal with the reverse of that but then that is my poor Chinese and me mispronouncing or misunderstanding.

I can’t watch the videos again at the moment; I shall do it later and go from there and ask a few clarification questions and see if this is the case or not

 

[Hendrik]

And that is what I am saying you are dong, you believe you are right, and on some points you are, but on others you are way off. If in fact in the 3rd video, where you commented on "intent": and said it was not good. If you actually meant to say "intent" you are very wrong. ---------


I adress facts. Not believe.

Right or wrong is not up to you. Can you evoke the Qi and lead it? if yes, make a utube and share. If not why keep play expert when you are not?



And anyone who has read my posts knows I never said that, I never said they were the same, I said they end up in the same place. I will assume you do not understand what that means due to a language barrier so I will explain. They start differently they are trained differently in the beginning, but as time goes on and as one trains them and if they train them properly they end up the same, meaning the person that trains them. And I will also add I have never understood some peoples obsession Neijia or the need to be associated with it.--------

They never end up in the same place. Anyone who has developed it knows.



I never said I was the standard and you keep referring to the Ancient Chinese documents that I think you feel you have exclusive right to read. But here is the thing I told you "I have read some of them" My teachers have studied them and they taught me. And all of this leads me to saying some of what you are saying, not all, but some of what you are saying is just not right -------


If you don't use yourself as a standard, why are you keep saying this wrong and that wrong?

 

[zuti car]

Hendrik, how about your definition of Qi. For constructive discussion it would be good to establish starting point , to be clear on how you define Qi and what do you exactly consider internal. When we have good understanding of that maybe we can have some discussion which can go in the right direction

 

[Xue Sheng]

And that is what I am saying you are dong, you believe you are right, and on some points you are, but on others you are way off. If in fact in the 3rd video, where you commented on "intent": and said it was not good. If you actually meant to say "intent" you are very wrong. ---------


I adress facts. Not believe.

Right or wrong is not up to you. Can you evoke the Qi and lead it? if yes, make a utube and share. If not why keep play expert when you are not?



And anyone who has read my posts knows I never said that, I never said they were the same, I said they end up in the same place. I will assume you do not understand what that means due to a language barrier so I will explain. They start differently they are trained differently in the beginning, but as time goes on and as one trains them and if they train them properly they end up the same, meaning the person that trains them. And I will also add I have never understood some peoples obsession Neijia or the need to be associated with it.--------

They never end up in the same place. Anyone who has developed it knows.



I never said I was the standard and you keep referring to the Ancient Chinese documents that I think you feel you have exclusive right to read. But here is the thing I told you "I have read some of them" My teachers have studied them and they taught me. And all of this leads me to saying some of what you are saying, not all, but some of what you are saying is just not right -------


If you don't use yourself as a standard, why are you keep saying this wrong and that wrong?

Hendrik

I was going to respond to this but I am still trying to redirect this back to a positive discussion

I will try this one last time..... please read my post #45.... it is directly beneath this post

Please read this

Let me see if I can redirect this to a more positive conversation.

I mean no insult by this but it is possible that you do know what you are talking about but you don’t know what you are saying. I deal with this every single day in my house; the use of the wrong English word or words or the misunderstanding of the English word by a native Chinese speaker that absolutely changes everything. I also deal with the reverse of that but then that is my poor Chinese and me mispronouncing or misunderstanding.

I can’t watch the videos again at the moment; I shall do it later and go from there and ask a few clarification questions and see if this is the case or not

 

[Tez3]

I mean no insult by this but it is possible that you do know what you are talking about but you don’t know what you are saying. I deal with this every single day in my house; the use of the wrong English word or words or the misunderstanding of the English word by a native Chinese speaker that absolutely changes everything. I also deal with the reverse of that but then that is my poor Chinese and me mispronouncing or misunderstanding.

Goodness knows we have enough misunderstandings between American English and British English without adding another language into the mix!

 

[dlcox]

For those following that may not know, here are the 3 basic categories:

1. Qi (Energy)
2. Li (Strength), aka; Li Qi
3. Jin (Power)

1. Movement of Qi (Energy) is solely directed by the Yi (Mind) not the body. This is basic Neijia (Internal Family) type training and is further defined by several categories such as Jing (Essence), Shen (Spirit) and type specific Qi (Energy). Anytime energy is mentally projected or moved solely by use the Yi (Mind) this can be called Qi.

2. Li (Strength) is when muscle is supported by Qi (Energy). Any Qi (Energy) use that requires more than mental use or projection in order to implement is considered Li (Strength). Since muscle was required for functional use it can no longer be called Qi (Energy) and is classified as Li (Strength). This is a generic description of Qigong (Energy Work).

3. Functional use of Li (Strength) is called Jin (Power). There are various methods of facilitation depending upon the art employed, but this is essentially a coordination of Qi (Energy) and Li (Strength) as directed by the Yi (Mind) to a single point. This is basic Waijia (External Family) type training and is further defined by several classifications of Jin (Power).

You can get very in-depth with the various classifications of and types of Qi, Li & Jin, but IMO this isn't really necessary beyond description of type specific action. Generally it is semantics similar to the descriptive actions of how specific movements are expressed, such as the difference between Zhong Bang (Middle Wing), Da Bang (Big Wing), Gai Zhou (Covering Elbow) etc. Same "Shape" being employed up, across, inward etc. The energy doesn't really change but the intent does. Focus affects force utilized. This can be strengthened through Qi (Energy) development and cultivation but does not occur solely because of it, all 3 methods are required. Generally when it comes to martial arts, Qi (Energy) is often grossly misused, functional use of energy is called Jin (Power) of which there are many types.

 

[Danny T]

If in fact in the 3rd video, where you commented on "intent": and said it was not good. If you actually meant to say "intent" you are very wrong.

Intent is a very very important part of Qi. I question the statement also.

Right or wrong is not up to you. Can you evoke the Qi and lead it? if yes, make a utube and share.

Hmm, and you can show Qi?
Interesting, Never have seen Qi; felt the effects it, but never seen it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I actually agree with much of this video but I do have a few questions.

First angles in Fook Sau and Wu Sau angles, I am getting the impression you are talking muscle tenseness and locking joints and that will block flow but

1) Are you saying sharp angle and saying that is locked and using to much muscle, or are you saying any sharp angle?

2) what about an angle that is relaxed as you find in the posture Single Whip (Dān biān, 单鞭) of Taijiquan

3) Internal movement: Are you saying it is only internal if you don’t have to move much or is it possible to still be internal and move a greater distance?

 

[Transk53]

Goodness knows we have enough misunderstandings between American English and British English without adding another language into the mix!

Wonder if anybody would understand a scouser on here. I think the biggest gripe is the the OP subject matter has been posted on another forum and been debunked. At least that is what I believe. The OP username and some others are the same. If that is indeed the case, it is a bit naughty. Newbies like me want transparency and a bit of honesty, in that I mean don't post somewhere else, then do the same around here. Information exchange should evolve the subject matter, not let loose a barrel of crap that looks genuine. My two cents!

 

[wtxs]

Wonder if anybody would understand a scouser on here. I think the biggest gripe is the the OP subject matter has been posted on another forum and been debunked. At least that is what I believe. The OP username and some others are the same. If that is indeed the case, it is a bit naughty. Newbies like me want transparency and a bit of honesty, in that I mean don't post somewhere else, then do the same around here. Information exchange should evolve the subject matter, not let loose a barrel of crap that looks genuine. My two cents!

You nailed it.

He's correct when he claim he wasn't banned from the other forum(s), in reality he had been shunned. An lesson he hasn't, unable or unwilling to learn.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The term "internal CMA" came from a tomb stone written by a famous Chinese scholar 黄宗羲Huang Zong-Xi at the end of the Ming dynasty. Hwang was a great scholar, but he knew nothing about CMA. Since then the "internal vs. external" issue have been argued over and over.

In Chinese, the term "external" has a meaning of "look down on somebody" as if "I know something but you don't". No wonder whenever there is any "internal" discussion appear, there will always be some argument.

In some CMA tournaments, the "internal" judges would always walk in the front followed by the "external" judges, and then followed by the "Sanda/Sanshou" judges.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The term "internal CMA" came from a tomb stone written by a famous Chinese scholar 黄宗羲Huang Zong-Xi at the end of the Ming dynasty. Hwang was a great scholar, but he knew nothing about CMA. Since then the "internal vs. external" issue have been argued over and over.

In Chinese, the term "external" has a meaning of "look down on somebody" as if "I know something but you don't". No wonder whenever there is any "internal" discussion appear, there will always be some argument.

In some CMA tournaments, the "internal" judges would always walk in the front followed by the "external" judges, and then followed by the "Sanda/Sanshou" judges.

The Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan (1669)... and there was no mention of taiji, xingyi or bagua, just the art of Wang Zhengan. And it seems it was more of a political statement against the Qing than anything else

And I have never understood the whole Neijia Elitism thing

 

[Xue Sheng]

You nailed it.

He's correct when he claim he wasn't banned from the other forum(s), in reality he had been shunned. An lesson he hasn't, unable or unwilling to learn.

I've been looking around the web and you are correct, it appears he has been around

 

[Hendrik]

1. Movement of Qi (Energy) is solely directed by the Yi (Mind) not the body. --------

This is not true at all in ancient Chinese practice.



Qi is just a common name of

Biochemical , bio electrical, bio thermal...etc energy in the human body.

Qigong is just the practice of handling these bio energy.





This is basic Neijia (Internal Family) type training and is further defined by several categories such as Jing (Essence), Shen (Spirit) and type specific Qi (Energy). Anytime energy is mentally projected or moved solely by use the Yi (Mind) this can be called Qi.-------


This is misleading and not accord with traditional Chinese medicine.

The above type of description shows one really don't know what it is but s speculation based ideas.



2. Li (Strength) is when muscle is supported by Qi (Energy). -------


Li is simply Muscle force.



Any Qi (Energy) use that requires more than mental use or projection in order to implement is considered Li (Strength). Since muscle was required for functional use it can no longer be called Qi (Energy) and is classified as Li (Strength). This is a generic description of Qigong (Energy Work). --------


This is just made complex simple thing. And also an indication of it is just speculation not practice .

How can the person make all these myth know what it is a practice it in real life?






3. Functional use of Li (Strength) is called Jin (Power). --------

Again, another speculation.

When one doesn't know what it is, one will not be able to develop it. Thus become all kind of myth and create all kind of gurus or experts because everyone of them think their interpretation is the truth but none can bring it to the physical world. Because they don't know what it is.
And they have no way to know what is what


There are various methods of facilitation depending upon the art employed, but this is essentially a coordination of Qi (Energy) and Li (Strength) as directed by the Yi (Mind) to a single point. --------

This is saying a lot but saying nothing.


Jin is just simply force projection or handling with trajectory.
No need to mytify things.



This is basic Waijia (External Family) type training and is further defined by several classifications of Jin (Power). ------

Again, more general speculation without mean anything.




You can get very in-depth with the various classifications of and types of Qi, Li & Jin, but IMO this isn't really necessary beyond description of type specific action. Generally it is semantics similar to the descriptive actions of how specific movements are expressed, such as the difference between Zhong Bang (Middle Wing), Da Bang (Big Wing), Gai Zhou (Covering Elbow) etc. Same "Shape" being employed up, across, inward etc. The energy doesn't really change but the intent does. Focus affects force utilized. This can be strengthened through Qi (Energy) development and cultivation but does not occur solely because of it, all 3 methods are required. Generally when it comes to martial arts, Qi (Energy) is often grossly misused, functional use of energy is called Jin (Power) of which there are many types. ----------



One can keep writing a millions books on these stuffs , make more mysterious and woo woo, but not touching what it is.

It is like those who never taste Apple keep writings about the taste of Apple. But never present what is the taste of Apple.

Most so called internal book or YouTube in the west are exactly doing these.


I am not trying to put down or insult anyone, but address the reality of it is time to wake up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1. Movement of Qi (Energy) is solely directed by the Yi (Mind) not the body. --------

This is not true at all in ancient Chinese practice.



Qi is just a common name of

Biochemical , bio electrical, bio thermal...etc energy in the human body.

Qigong is just the practice of handling these bio energy.





This is basic Neijia (Internal Family) type training and is further defined by several categories such as Jing (Essence), Shen (Spirit) and type specific Qi (Energy). Anytime energy is mentally projected or moved solely by use the Yi (Mind) this can be called Qi.-------


This is misleading and not accord with traditional Chinese medicine.

The above type of description shows one really don't know what it is but s speculation based ideas.



2. Li (Strength) is when muscle is supported by Qi (Energy). -------


Li is simply Muscle force.



Any Qi (Energy) use that requires more than mental use or projection in order to implement is considered Li (Strength). Since muscle was required for functional use it can no longer be called Qi (Energy) and is classified as Li (Strength). This is a generic description of Qigong (Energy Work). --------


This is just made complex simple thing. And also an indication of it is just speculation not practice .

How can the person make all these myth know what it is a practice it in real life?






3. Functional use of Li (Strength) is called Jin (Power). --------

Again, another speculation.

When one doesn't know what it is, one will not be able to develop it. Thus become all kind of myth and create all kind of gurus or experts because everyone of them think their interpretation is the truth but none can bring it to the physical world. Because they don't know what it is.
And they have no way to know what is what


There are various methods of facilitation depending upon the art employed, but this is essentially a coordination of Qi (Energy) and Li (Strength) as directed by the Yi (Mind) to a single point. --------

This is saying a lot but saying nothing.


Jin is just simply force projection or handling with trajectory.
No need to mytify things.



This is basic Waijia (External Family) type training and is further defined by several classifications of Jin (Power). ------

Again, more general speculation without mean anything.




You can get very in-depth with the various classifications of and types of Qi, Li & Jin, but IMO this isn't really necessary beyond description of type specific action. Generally it is semantics similar to the descriptive actions of how specific movements are expressed, such as the difference between Zhong Bang (Middle Wing), Da Bang (Big Wing), Gai Zhou (Covering Elbow) etc. Same "Shape" being employed up, across, inward etc. The energy doesn't really change but the intent does. Focus affects force utilized. This can be strengthened through Qi (Energy) development and cultivation but does not occur solely because of it, all 3 methods are required. Generally when it comes to martial arts, Qi (Energy) is often grossly misused, functional use of energy is called Jin (Power) of which there are many types. ----------



One can keep writing a millions books on these stuffs , make more mysterious and woo woo, but not touching what it is.

It is like those who never taste Apple keep writings about the taste of Apple. But never present what is the taste of Apple.

Most so called internal book or YouTube in the west are exactly doing these.


I am not trying to put down or insult anyone, but address the reality of it is time to wake up.

all that and you didn't answer a single question I asked you in post #54, you did however say a lot of things no one has asked you about

Here, please allow me to ask them again. All are directed at the first video you posted

1) Are you saying sharp angle and saying that is locked and using to much muscle, or are you saying any sharp angle?

2) what about an angle that is relaxed as you find in the posture Single Whip (Dān biān, 单鞭) of Taijiquan

3) Internal movement: Are you saying it is only internal if you don’t have to move much or is it possible to still be internal and move a greater distance?

 

[Hendrik]

Please view the videos carefully. Details has been described in the videos.

all that and you didn't answer a single question I asked you in post #54, you did however say a lot of things no one has asked you about

Here, please allow me to ask them again. All are directed at the first video you posted

1) Are you saying sharp angle and saying that is locked and using to much muscle, or are you saying any sharp angle?

2) what about an angle that is relaxed as you find in the posture Single Whip (Dān biān, 单鞭) of Taijiquan

3) Internal movement: Are you saying it is only internal if you don’t have to move much or is it possible to still be internal and move a greater distance?