How would you compare the grappling arts on their ability to escape the ground game?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by skribs, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    That is kind of a cop out. If I wanted to be a MMA fighter and could only find time to train infrequently. The solution is find more time to train.

    There quite simply isn't a short cut that makes you good without effort.
     
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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes and no. The rules prevent it. But the system allows it.

    If you told Jordan Burroughs to just stall and run he I am assuming he would be pretty good at it.

    If we got five plebs in a room I doubt they would be able to contain him in that room.

    It is like saying mma fighters can't kick you in the nuts. Well they are not legally allowed to but they kick well and manage distance well and it is not such a specialized technique that they couldn't throw or set up that kick.

    Rather than spending time on a kick shield nut kicking away. Getting some perfect nut shot.

    Again it is bang for buck.
     
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  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    But like that video. Situational awareness is not walking in to a river, seeing a crocodile and reacting.
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Some arts focus on stand up and escape skills though.
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep. I just wish Judo rules hadn't moved so far in that direction. Back in the day, hand fighting was taught more than I've been told it commonly is now, so folks take a lot longer to get as clean at it. I start more from that side: folks learn to escape a grip (the defensive side of grip-fighting) before they learn to use one in a technique. After a point though, the principles are the same. If folks practice using grips against each other, they'll learn to defend those grips.
     
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  6. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Which is why I said it would be something to put later into the curriculum.

    This is the issue I have with pure sport being an issue

    It doesn't matter if it's 6 hours, 12 hours, or 50 hours of training a week, the point stands. You only have so much time you can devote to training. At some point you have to pick what you're not training in order to add something else in.

    Also, for people with other commitments, like families, jobs, and other things, it may not be in the cards to train more. Should they not train because they don't meet your standards?
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    After a point, it's less of an issue. Once someone puts in enough time, the skills start to become more generalized (not specific to the limited examples and applications they've worked on). The issue tends to be for the folks who haven't gotten there yet (some of whom may never do so, because of their priorities).
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This is an important point. If someone wants to get really good, they need to spend the time. But if they just want to improve, then it's important to help them find what improvement is possible in the time their priorities allow.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    We go the other way because it is infuriating to have to chase people around the mat who refuse to engage. And then they are not really practicing anything.

    So generally we start from a collar tie or engage in something.

    Two people playing flappy hands for 5 minutes doesn't really train much.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    This is the part I have an issue with. Not necessarily that people have priorities, but when people project their priorities onto others, and say what you should or shouldn't train based on their priorities.
     
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  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    They can train as much as they want but they won't meet their own standards if they don't train enough.

    Doing all the sport and supplementing it with self defense is probably the most efficient way to get the most result for the least amount of time.

    Sport creates capability exceptionally fast.

    We have a program that will take a guy off the street and put him in a full contact fight in 3 months.

    We can look a Aikido Rokus development in a year.

    You could enter a MMA fight against a first time fighter and see for your self if you wanted.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I am not projecting anything. You will get a result that is proportional to the work you put in.

    It is a joke I use a bit. Here I am busting my balls to fight one guy. When if I had done Krav maga I would have laid waste to the entire room by now.

     
  13. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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    Situational awarness is indeed seeing the crocodile and reacting, but its also more than that, its recognising the signs of a crocodile before you actually see it.
    Many beleive its an instinctual skill that we had in our days of hunter gatherers, but as life has become more comfortable, and less dangerous, we no longer refine or indeed seldom use it, we get flashes of it and call it a gut feeling. It is in us, we just need to reuse and refine these skills.
    I am not going to go into detail, thats for another thread, but we can train ourselves in these skills, and its starts with trusting your feelings, it can be trained, some of the things we already know, like learn to use a knife, theres more chance of recognising someone else that is about to use one, albeit stance or movement or body language, another example take a basic front kick, and the biomechanics of that kick, usually so well practiced, over and over, if you study the movement, you can tell the point of execusion before it comes, you can distinguish the difference from a feint to an actual kick, purely by where the tension is in the body, and of course once the desision is made the biomechanics of the kick are so well drilled you know when,where and how the structure of the body will be if the kick is negated, its not easy, but it is a skill that can be homed, noticing subtle differences not being paranoid, someone once told me, if ever you meet someone who has been in a car accident, they say its like time slowed down, I am not talking about slowing time, but it can give that effect when situations/people are readable, but it is part of the puzzle that is YOU.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    While we are on the subject. Here is a rugby two on one tackle concept that straight up basically murders any sort of defensive footwork from the defender.



    You put a guy on either side. One stops the guys momentum the other wraps his legs and he falls straight over.

    It basically breaks a multiple attacker sparring drill. And I live in a rugby league town. This is all people do.
     
  15. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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    This sounds a bit cliche, but you and your students, do a whole class blindfolded, but get your students to ask themselves how they feel sporadically
     
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  16. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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    You can turn every day things into training, instead of bending over to pick something up, do a squat, in a queue at lunch time, move yourself subtley as if you was going to strike other people around you, take the stairs and run up them, you are only limited by your imagination.I have been caught so many times punching and kicking crap out of wrapped pallets of compost.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    They start with someone who already knows the gripping side, so that person is practicing getting the grips. This really starts as a very short intro to grip escapes, learning some basic principles early while they get used to the environment. It also gives me a chance to gauge their manual dexterity and pain tolerance (some folks have a very low threshold - something I hadn't known before I started training). Things progress pretty quickly to them learning to use those grips. Knowing those principles of escape in advance seems to help them understand what makes the grip effective. It's pretty much the same either way, I expect.
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Lots of things break stuff. That's why we all train.
     
  19. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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  20. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Right, ok...

    In both of those, while the exercises are more or less good for practicing what to focus on, and good for cardio, all of the 'team' are pretty much taking turns against the one.

    Someone will be attacking/defending and the others are standing back and/or going around to a different angle.

    I can't believe that DB (or his club) look upon that as serious sd against multiples.


    I've seen a couple of "multiple v one" type "street" altercations, and it's extremely less polite. There's no waiting, no "after you, I insist" - it's full bore everyone at once whether they hit the person they intend or one of their friends.

    It's way more like the classic schoolyard event where someone points and shouts "bundle" and everyone jumps on someone, all at once. The only way to avoid injury is to hang back a bit and be the one on top ;)

    In the first vid, the single gets caught with an arm around the neck and the spare two stand watching - in the type I've witnessed, those two are going to be in punching and kicking.

    If it's 4 or 5 attackers who are out to really attack - it's run or game over.

    If they're so polite as above to take turns, then sure, you've got a chance.

    If it's a proper attack though, then really I don't care who you are or what you train, you're losing - badly. You'll likely get 2 or 3 rushing and restraining while the other 2 or 3 hit anything in range.


    There is nothing I've ever seen to suggest ANY sd training against multiple attackers is anything other than utter fantasy - one, definitely - two, yeah, probably - three or more, best be thinking about what you want off the hospital menu (unless you get extremely lucky).


    So, is there anything out there that has the potential to change my opinion, even slightly?123
     

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