How would you compare the grappling arts on their ability to escape the ground game?

[drop bear]

Now, I say "suffer", maybe I'd be better off, maybe it would simply be a change. But if you have 6 hours a week to devote to class, and you want to cover MMA from a self defense standpoint, then some of the MMA training has to take a back seat to cover concepts that are going to be specific to self defense.

That is kind of a cop out. If I wanted to be a MMA fighter and could only find time to train infrequently. The solution is find more time to train.

There quite simply isn't a short cut that makes you good without effort.

 

[drop bear]

Does wrestling allow for purely defensive play? This is one of the areas where Judo rules conflict with self-defense concepts - you aren't really allowed to focus on defending the grabbing, as I understand it.

Yes and no. The rules prevent it. But the system allows it.

If you told Jordan Burroughs to just stall and run he I am assuming he would be pretty good at it.

If we got five plebs in a room I doubt they would be able to contain him in that room.

It is like saying mma fighters can't kick you in the nuts. Well they are not legally allowed to but they kick well and manage distance well and it is not such a specialized technique that they couldn't throw or set up that kick.

Rather than spending time on a kick shield nut kicking away. Getting some perfect nut shot.

Again it is bang for buck.

 

[drop bear]

I'd love to focus more on situational awareness. I don't really know of many good ways to train it in a dojo. I could do more with a wandering class, and there are a few drills that seem to help reduce tunnel vision under stress, but that's about the scope of it, other than some reasonable recommendations (lecture time).

But like that video. Situational awareness is not walking in to a river, seeing a crocodile and reacting.

 

[drop bear]

On the O/P... I'd sayt hat any of the grappling arts would work well, what's being described is a strategic decision... in other words, tactically choosing in all instances to create space, gain an escape-friendly position, and get back to the standing posture... rather than continuing the ground engagement.

Some arts focus on stand up and escape skills though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes and no. The rules prevent it. But the system allows it.

If you told Jordan Burroughs to just stall and run he I am assuming he would be pretty good at it.

If we got five plebs in a room I doubt they would be able to contain him in that room.

It is like saying mma fighters can't kick you in the nuts. Well they are not legally allowed to but they kick well and manage distance well and it is not such a specialized technique that they couldn't throw or set up that kick.

Rather than spending time on a kick shield nut kicking away. Getting some perfect nut shot.

Again it is bang for buck.

Yep. I just wish Judo rules hadn't moved so far in that direction. Back in the day, hand fighting was taught more than I've been told it commonly is now, so folks take a lot longer to get as clean at it. I start more from that side: folks learn to escape a grip (the defensive side of grip-fighting) before they learn to use one in a technique. After a point though, the principles are the same. If folks practice using grips against each other, they'll learn to defend those grips.

 

[skribs]

In self defense wrestling covers so much basic fighting concept that you get a massive reward for your investment. If you could wrestle but never trained multiple attackers you would be better off against multiple attackers than if you trained multiple attackers but never wrestled.

This is because the basic skills you will use to obtain your objective are contained within wrestling. Which is grappling people or not being grappled. They are for some reason very hard to hold down.

Which is why I said it would be something to put later into the curriculum.

Does wrestling allow for purely defensive play? This is one of the areas where Judo rules conflict with self-defense concepts - you aren't really allowed to focus on defending the grabbing, as I understand it.

This is the issue I have with pure sport being an issue

That is kind of a cop out. If I wanted to be a MMA fighter and could only find time to train infrequently. The solution is find more time to train.

There quite simply isn't a short cut that makes you good without effort.

It doesn't matter if it's 6 hours, 12 hours, or 50 hours of training a week, the point stands. You only have so much time you can devote to training. At some point you have to pick what you're not training in order to add something else in.

Also, for people with other commitments, like families, jobs, and other things, it may not be in the cards to train more. Should they not train because they don't meet your standards?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the issue I have with pure sport being an issue

After a point, it's less of an issue. Once someone puts in enough time, the skills start to become more generalized (not specific to the limited examples and applications they've worked on). The issue tends to be for the folks who haven't gotten there yet (some of whom may never do so, because of their priorities).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also, for people with other commitments, like families, jobs, and other things, it may not be in the cards to train more. Should they not train because they don't meet your standards?

This is an important point. If someone wants to get really good, they need to spend the time. But if they just want to improve, then it's important to help them find what improvement is possible in the time their priorities allow.

 

[drop bear]

Yep. I just wish Judo rules hadn't moved so far in that direction. Back in the day, hand fighting was taught more than I've been told it commonly is now, so folks take a lot longer to get as clean at it. I start more from that side: folks learn to escape a grip (the defensive side of grip-fighting) before they learn to use one in a technique. After a point though, the principles are the same. If folks practice using grips against each other, they'll learn to defend those grips.

We go the other way because it is infuriating to have to chase people around the mat who refuse to engage. And then they are not really practicing anything.

So generally we start from a collar tie or engage in something.

Two people playing flappy hands for 5 minutes doesn't really train much.

 

[skribs]

(some of whom may never do so, because of their priorities).

This is the part I have an issue with. Not necessarily that people have priorities, but when people project their priorities onto others, and say what you should or shouldn't train based on their priorities.

 

[drop bear]

It doesn't matter if it's 6 hours, 12 hours, or 50 hours of training a week, the point stands. You only have so much time you can devote to training. At some point you have to pick what you're not training in order to add something else in.

Also, for people with other commitments, like families, jobs, and other things, it may not be in the cards to train more. Should they not train because they don't meet your standards?

They can train as much as they want but they won't meet their own standards if they don't train enough.

Doing all the sport and supplementing it with self defense is probably the most efficient way to get the most result for the least amount of time.

Sport creates capability exceptionally fast.

We have a program that will take a guy off the street and put him in a full contact fight in 3 months.

We can look a Aikido Rokus development in a year.

You could enter a MMA fight against a first time fighter and see for your self if you wanted.

 

[drop bear]

This is the part I have an issue with. Not necessarily that people have priorities, but when people project their priorities onto others, and say what you should or shouldn't train based on their priorities.

I am not projecting anything. You will get a result that is proportional to the work you put in.

It is a joke I use a bit. Here I am busting my balls to fight one guy. When if I had done Krav maga I would have laid waste to the entire room by now.

 

[Gweilo]

But like that video. Situational awareness is not walking in to a river, seeing a crocodile and reacting.

Situational awarness is indeed seeing the crocodile and reacting, but its also more than that, its recognising the signs of a crocodile before you actually see it.
Many beleive its an instinctual skill that we had in our days of hunter gatherers, but as life has become more comfortable, and less dangerous, we no longer refine or indeed seldom use it, we get flashes of it and call it a gut feeling. It is in us, we just need to reuse and refine these skills.
I am not going to go into detail, thats for another thread, but we can train ourselves in these skills, and its starts with trusting your feelings, it can be trained, some of the things we already know, like learn to use a knife, theres more chance of recognising someone else that is about to use one, albeit stance or movement or body language, another example take a basic front kick, and the biomechanics of that kick, usually so well practiced, over and over, if you study the movement, you can tell the point of execusion before it comes, you can distinguish the difference from a feint to an actual kick, purely by where the tension is in the body, and of course once the desision is made the biomechanics of the kick are so well drilled you know when,where and how the structure of the body will be if the kick is negated, its not easy, but it is a skill that can be homed, noticing subtle differences not being paranoid, someone once told me, if ever you meet someone who has been in a car accident, they say its like time slowed down, I am not talking about slowing time, but it can give that effect when situations/people are readable, but it is part of the puzzle that is YOU.

 

[drop bear]

While we are on the subject. Here is a rugby two on one tackle concept that straight up basically murders any sort of defensive footwork from the defender.

You put a guy on either side. One stops the guys momentum the other wraps his legs and he falls straight over.

It basically breaks a multiple attacker sparring drill. And I live in a rugby league town. This is all people do.

 

[Gweilo]

I'd love to focus more on situational awareness. I don't really know of many good ways to train it in a dojo

This sounds a bit cliche, but you and your students, do a whole class blindfolded, but get your students to ask themselves how they feel sporadically

 

[Gweilo]

The problem is there's only so much time you can devote to training.

You can turn every day things into training, instead of bending over to pick something up, do a squat, in a queue at lunch time, move yourself subtley as if you was going to strike other people around you, take the stairs and run up them, you are only limited by your imagination.I have been caught so many times punching and kicking crap out of wrapped pallets of compost.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We go the other way because it is infuriating to have to chase people around the mat who refuse to engage. And then they are not really practicing anything.

So generally we start from a collar tie or engage in something.

Two people playing flappy hands for 5 minutes doesn't really train much.

They start with someone who already knows the gripping side, so that person is practicing getting the grips. This really starts as a very short intro to grip escapes, learning some basic principles early while they get used to the environment. It also gives me a chance to gauge their manual dexterity and pain tolerance (some folks have a very low threshold - something I hadn't known before I started training). Things progress pretty quickly to them learning to use those grips. Knowing those principles of escape in advance seems to help them understand what makes the grip effective. It's pretty much the same either way, I expect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While we are on the subject. Here is a rugby two on one tackle concept that straight up basically murders any sort of defensive footwork from the defender.

You put a guy on either side. One stops the guys momentum the other wraps his legs and he falls straight over.

It basically breaks a multiple attacker sparring drill. And I live in a rugby league town. This is all people do.

Lots of things break stuff. That's why we all train.

 

[Gweilo]

So how does the ref jumping in change a tactic or a technique or a concept when it comes to self defense vs sport

4

 

[pdg]

Right, ok...

And of course there is this. <<Multiple sparring vid>>

It is a joke I use a bit. Here I am busting my balls to fight one guy. When if I had done Krav maga I would have laid waste to the entire room by now. <<"Sparring" vid>>

In both of those, while the exercises are more or less good for practicing what to focus on, and good for cardio, all of the 'team' are pretty much taking turns against the one.

Someone will be attacking/defending and the others are standing back and/or going around to a different angle.

I can't believe that DB (or his club) look upon that as serious sd against multiples.


I've seen a couple of "multiple v one" type "street" altercations, and it's extremely less polite. There's no waiting, no "after you, I insist" - it's full bore everyone at once whether they hit the person they intend or one of their friends.

It's way more like the classic schoolyard event where someone points and shouts "bundle" and everyone jumps on someone, all at once. The only way to avoid injury is to hang back a bit and be the one on top

In the first vid, the single gets caught with an arm around the neck and the spare two stand watching - in the type I've witnessed, those two are going to be in punching and kicking.

or there maybe 4 or 5 attackers

If it's 4 or 5 attackers who are out to really attack - it's run or game over.

If they're so polite as above to take turns, then sure, you've got a chance.

If it's a proper attack though, then really I don't care who you are or what you train, you're losing - badly. You'll likely get 2 or 3 rushing and restraining while the other 2 or 3 hit anything in range.


There is nothing I've ever seen to suggest ANY sd training against multiple attackers is anything other than utter fantasy - one, definitely - two, yeah, probably - three or more, best be thinking about what you want off the hospital menu (unless you get extremely lucky).


So, is there anything out there that has the potential to change my opinion, even slightly?