How would you compare the grappling arts on their ability to escape the ground game?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by skribs, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    770
    Likes Received:
    248
    Trophy Points:
    43
    In the comments I made about the drills we practice, up to 4 or 5, the drill is as you rightly stated move to escape, move one adversary into anothers path, put a strike in if you can, but create space to escape, if you manage to escape in this drill, you turn and face them again, create space if you can, escape etc, Recommending to stand and fight 4 or 5 people borders on lunacy, if there is a chance to escape
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    If there's no chance of escape, then you might as well give it a go. Nothing to lose if you're already screwed.

    But if anyone said they have a system that can reliably train you to fight a group I'd laugh and point and walk away.

    Just so long as that's only part of the drill, and not the recommended method ;)
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    I find it entirely hypocritical of a martial artist to advocate against training in a situation in which you also agree you would fight.

    If you are in that situation, then having prepared for it will give you a higher chance of success.

    Do you tell people to just go fight 1 on 1, or do yoh train them how? If someone goes from boxing to MMA, is it acceptable to train groundfighting by saying "if you get taken down, just fight as best you can", or do you train escapes and submission defense at the very least?
     
  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Going into MMA from boxing is an achievable goal - with some training it's something that you stand a decent chance in, especially if you're a decent boxer in the first place.

    And yes, train for 1 on 1 and for 2 on 1 - play a bit with 3 on 1 for a bit of extra pressure.

    If you have 3 or 4+ absolutely clueless attackers then everything you learn in 1 on 1 and 2 on 1 will be directly applicable.

    A bit like the Jack Reacher (mis) quote about it not being 5 against 1, it's 3 against one because you take out the leader, then have 2 enthusiastic wingmen to deal with while the last 2 run away (they always run).

    Serious training for vs 3+ though is an absolute waste of effort.

    But if you have 3 people attacking who have anything like half a clue then I don't care what your training entails, barring extreme luck you're going down.

    The very best you can hope for is to get really lucky, like lottery lucky, or to take at least one down with you.

    If anyone, anyone at all, says they can teach people how to reliably defeat 3+ determined attackers then quite honestly they're selling snake oil, and it's spoiled.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    I'm going to highlight two sentences:
    Serious training for vs 3+ though is an absolute waste of effort.
    If anyone, anyone at all, says they can teach people how to reliably defeat 3+ determined attackers


    These two statements are about 2 different things. You don't have to defeat 3+ attackers, just survive long enough to get away (or at the very least take one of them down with you). Also, there's a big gray area between "don't train" and "claim to reliably defeat".

    You go to an MMA gym and they'll all train you to fight MMA fighters. That doesn't mean you'll reliably defeat MMA fighters. How many people join an MMA gym expecting to become champions, and how many actually achieve that goal?

    You've set a bar for success that is higher than what is realistic, and then made the simple analysis that it is impossible to meet that bar. That doesn't mean that training 3+ is a waste of time.
     
  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,494
    Likes Received:
    3,983
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    For general getting back to your feet with someone trying to hold you down, wrestling is probably best overall of the traditional grappling arts.

    BJJ isn't as strong in that department, but does have good methods for getting up while avoiding strikes and submissions, which traditional wrestling lacks.

    Maybe the best option would be modern MMA wrestling, which incorporates traditional wrestling, plus strike awareness, plus submission awareness, plus methods for using a wall to help stand up if you are pinned against one.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    You'll get a hell of a lot closer to attaining the goal of defeating or equalling a matched MMA fighter in an MMA fight by training MMA.

    Training against 2 should give you what's required to escape from 3 or more, if it's a group you stand a chance against in the first place.

    Because with the group that don't know what they're doing, it'll be one or two taking the lead and the other(s) hanging about trying to look hard. Take down or get away from those one or two, you'll be out of range before the other(s) make up their mind whether to actually join in.

    The group that do know what they're doing, you might get one down but at the same time the others will be on you like a tramp on chips.

    That's the kind of situation where it's worth having a go*, but not really worth 'training' for because no training is going to do much - unless you're in a film.

    And therein lies my previous statement - if you escape, you have defeated their purpose. And again - claim to reliably defeat 3+, especially if they have a clue = snake oil.




    *A guy on YouTube, talking about taking apart a failed 'sealed for life' electronic item to have a bash at fixing it - might as well give it shot, it's already f'd, you can't f it more.
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    By this logic, UFC fighters should train to beat MMA amateurs, since the same skills are required.
     
  9. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    If you honestly think that's what I'm even remotely saying then there's a much bigger language barrier than I ever thought.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,802
    Likes Received:
    4,378
    Trophy Points:
    308
    They really don't.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,802
    Likes Received:
    4,378
    Trophy Points:
    308
    What techniques win UFC fights?
     
  12. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    Technically they're the same techniques. But you of all people I would expect to know that if you're only practicing against beginners and amateurs, it's not enough to prepare for a pro-level fight.
     
  13. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Hence it being a movie quote...


    Edit: and even in the film, the last two don't run away - but even so it's a series of 1v1, 2v1, 1v1, police arrive and halt the last one - so it's still not 5v1.
     
  14. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Are you honestly not seeing the disconnect in logic between MMA training and training to defeat (the purpose of*) a group of attackers?



    *Seems I have to qualify everything I say at the moment...
     
  15. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    6,177
    Likes Received:
    1,827
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    Im not fully sure i get what you're saying. Do you think certain techniques that work one on one arent worth practicing if youre concerened about a group of attackers? Or do you think since most attackers aren't trained, it doesnt matter what you learn?
     
  16. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    To summarise, and clarify the context, because it's admittedly easy to lose track... And because it appears you have utterly misinterpreted my previous posts :p

    This is from a practical defence perspective - if entertainment, do what you want ;)

    Techniques for 1v1 (and 2v1) are the ones worth practicing.

    Against a group that "aren't trained" (training in this context includes developing a strategy for your Saturday night brawls) it's more likely you'll be subject to a series of 1v1 or 2v1 as they take turns.

    Escape (or beat) the first, and you've either got away, won, or you're on to the next.

    Against a group that "are trained" (/practiced / they've thought about it / whatever) then the best you can do is use the 1v1 and 2v1 techniques and hope you get lucky enough. Because, quite honestly, if they've thought about it they'll be on you all at once from different directions.

    There's usually the comment made about multiples, where if you concentrate on one you may miss his mate coming up behind - think about the one in front, one coming up from behind, one left, one right - all at once. What exactly is the training strategy to counter that? Line them up?


    Somehow, skribs then made the ludicrous leap of equating that with hoping to be a UFC champ :/

    To use that analogy - someone claiming to be able to teach legitimate 1v3+ techniques is akin to an MMA coach only teaching a handstand kick.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    No.

    I equated it to only practicing techniques against beginners and expecting to be a UFC champion.
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,802
    Likes Received:
    4,378
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Anyway is there any evidence to support 3 0n 1 training work better than 1 0n 1 training?
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    For dealing with multiple attackers I'd think it would be common sense. There are factors and strategies when dealing with another opponent that aren't present when fighting a single opponent.

    If I'm fighting multiple people, I'm trying to use one of them as a barrier between the others. That's a concept that literally does not exist in 1-on-1.
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,802
    Likes Received:
    4,378
    Trophy Points:
    308
    And the methods you are using are different to the methods that a competent fighter would already know?

    So if you now turn around and suggest to achieve this task you will use footwork and baiting strategy Mabye a bit of grappling. You are not exactly reinventing the wheel.

    Thai clinch turning as an example of a method that could be used to create a barrier between two guys.



    An example of mobility drills that could be used to out position multiple attackers.
    123
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page