How would you compare the grappling arts on their ability to escape the ground game?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by skribs, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Typically, when people look at a grappling art, they're looking at how well you can win the fight once you're on the ground. Maybe your main sport is the grappling art, in which case the submission or pin is how you get the win. Or you train the art to train your ground game, in which case once it goes down you want the submission. I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who's primary is striking, and if I go down I'd like to create space and get back to my feet (or vice versa).

    My thoughts on this are that wrestling, judo, and BJJ all have different advantages towards this. I took wrestling 20 years ago, and I remember training escapes. BJJ I know seeks to control space, i.e. by creating space and filling it. Do the concepts apply to creating space and then using that space? Or what about Judo. I hear they tend to be more explosive, where BJJ tends to be more methodical.

    If your goal was to use the grappling skills to escape the grapple and get back to your feet, which grappling art would you choose?
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You look at the wrestling arts that score advantages to standing back up. Which is why folk wrestling is considered such a good fit for mma.
     
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  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Can a prostitute be virgin?
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wow I could have taken that to a very dark place.

    Anyway. This is the sort of thing you are looking for.

     
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This guy has no desire to escape the ground game.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    It is. I'm wondering how it compares to BJJ, Judo, or any other primary grappling art.
     
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Kabib.
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you have a close look at what they are doing . Unless they get completely merked with a throw by the time they have landed they are almost back on their feet.



    What you are looking for technically is the fight for hands and knees position called turtle and from turtle to standing.

    Bjj will instead fight for guard and then fight of their back.



    As a side note. There is an idea that to enhance the concept of grappling and standing that you throw the guy and stay standing yourself.

    But if you were dealing with anyone any good they will behave like that first video, stand back up and you will have basically wasted your time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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  10. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes. Yes they can.
     
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  11. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    The idea is if I've been thrown or taken down.

    In Hapkido the idea is to do what you said - throw them and remain standing. Or I'd simply try and break the grip and create space if I could (throwing is one way of creating that space).

    But the ground game in hapkido isn't as well developed as in Wrestling or BJJ. The video you shows is a pretty good description of the two.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I’d put BJJ ahead of Judo in that area. In some situations, I’d put NGA on similar footing with BJJ, but only a few. In most situations beyond the knee, it’s more limited than Judo.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What, precisely, has that to do with the question, John?
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    From what I’ve seen, the Hapkido approach is similar to what’s usually taught in NGA. It’s not that tough to teach uke to hold on when he can as a reversal, which causes nage to have to follow the throw. Which also naturally leads to ground control (“Major Tom, do you read me?”).
     
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  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If the ground is your favor battle field, why do you want to get back up?
     
  16. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    The ground is not my favored battlefield. If I train ground fighting I want to train to get back to my favored battlefield.
     
  17. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    Whats wrong with create or find the space, then fill it, be it on the ground, or upright?
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not sure what you mean
     
  19. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    Op first post, stated if going to ground, he likes to create space, so he can get to his feet or vice a versa(nothing wrong with that), and that bjj created space then fills the space (nothing wrong with that), its a stratergy that works well on the ground and in an upright stance, so why not use that, Hapkido is strongest technique wise in the upright position, so as groundwork is by his own admission a weak or unfavoured pisition, change it, he knows the theories of circular movement, he also knows the theories of non resistance, I think it was skribs (appologies if was not) stated in another post he has thought about creating a new art, so whats wrong with create space, fill space and intergrating it with some of the Hapkido theories and techniques to improve the groundwork, I for one would be inrerested in his findings, as its something I have been toying with, blending some of the techniques from prevoius arts (bujinkan, Hapkido) to the movement principles of Systema (not creating a new art per say just adapting my style), having talked about this in my Hapkido days (groundwork not a strong point of the art) and not experiencing proper grappling wrestling techniques until I started Systema, it is something I have experimented with for a while, and I think its better to adapt oneself rather than start another art.
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Because he wouldn't receive the benefit of learning to do the thing he wants off guys who can do what he wants at an elite level.

    And he could test this really quite easily because he could go to a wrestling school and see if he can hold a wrestler down. Then he could see if a wrestler could hold him down.

    And look I haven't seen how that will pan out but if say he just gets straight up toyed with. Then the principles that they were using are probably the ones he would want to adopt regardless of stylistic preferences.

    123
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020

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