How many kata is too many kata?

[Sauzin]

Hello Shuri-te,

I have to say that your first response is a mountain of wisdom. I agree completely with what you are saying there. What is particularly interesting to me is the style you practice. Shito-ryu. You see my sensei often gives Shito-ryu as an example of a system that has more kata then he practices. He often quotes a number over 100. Now I’m sure that different teachers practice different numbers but it is particularly interesting to me that you tried practicing 50 and ran into the same problems I did, and now you practice 5. That, to me, is an inspiration.

Now I run into the problem were if I were to just practice 5 I would probably loose my rank. That or frustrate my sensei to the point of certain brain hemorrhage. But I think I can take a point from what other’s have suggested and focus on 3 or 5 primarily, practicing the rest only enough to not forget the pattern.

Here is a question I would like to pose, and get your view on. When discussing the advantages and disadvantages of many kata my sensei often quotes what he refers to as an old Okinawan parable, which goes something like this. A sensei had 3 students. One was an expert kicker, one was an expert with hand techniques, and another was a generalist who did both but wasn’t as good at either. One day a street thug entered the town and began causing trouble. The sensei first sent his kicker to dispatch the thug, but he met with defeat. The sensei then sent his hand specialist who also was brought down by the street thug. Exasperated he sent the only student he had left but had little hope. The generalist quickly defeated the street thug, much to the sensei’s surprise. The sensei did not understand how his generalist who was not as good at kicking as his kicker, nor as good at hand techniques as his hand specialist could win with these inferior skills. The student explained that because he understood both hand techniques and kicks, there was nothing the thug could do to surprise him. Thus he defeated the thug.

My sensei uses this parable to explain that even if you aren’t the best of the best at a technique, by broadening your exposure and familiarity to techniques you ultimately become the better martial artist. He also argues that since he is training me to be a teacher it is important that I know as many kata as possible so that I can teach anyone. How would you respond to these statements?

-Paul Holsinger

 

[Shuri-te]

Sauzin,

Thank your for your kind reply.

Your teacher's story of a balanced approach to the arts is a good one. But I would argue that a few kata can give you the balanced set of techniques you need, you just have to pick what works for you. For example, out of five Pinans, I decided to practice only two, Shodan and Yondan. First I am in awe of the depth and effectiveness of technique that some of the movements have, as these give me a remarkably diverse set of capabilities. But also, I think combinations with kicks are a critical skill, and these are the most kick-intensive of the Pinans, and of many Okinawan kata in general.

You are right that it is difficult to find the right balance in the tradeoff between kata as "art" and practiced for rank promotion, and kata practiced for self-defense. The good news is that if you choose to practice a few kata many times, then many of your less-practiced kata will get better and better, because so many kata movements have so much in common.

I have a breathing technique I use in the practice of kata that helps me leverage the practice of a few movements. But this is a bit off the subject, so I will start a new thread.

Regarding the challenge of remembering kata you choose to practice infrequently, I suggest you get a commercial tape, or see if you can videotape your Sensei, if you have the equipment. Your kata may be pretty similar to Bruce Heilman's and his are commercially available and pretty reasonably priced. Having a kata on video allows you to not worry too much about a kata for a period, and then dive back into it as needed.

I like to watch videos when stretching, and I can't tell you how valuable these are for me. I confess that I grow more forgetful as I get older and I now rely on videos to help me remember, not just kata, but some of my techniques as well.

Please note that my problem is not limited to my Shito Ryu kata. (I like to say that the character "shi" has an alternate meaning of "too many" and the character "to" has an alternate meaning of "kata", so my "system" is the way of too many kata.) I also occasionally train in Matsubayashi, Kobayashi and Shotokan dojos, so I strive to remember those versions of kata as well. And of course there are kobudo kata.

What's become a joke in my dojo is that I will dream up some kata application driving to or from work, and then in the evening, will try it out in the dojo to see what works and what needs refinement. (Or whether the whole idea needs to be chucked.) Some months later a student will use it in partner work, and I will ask "Did you come up with that?" In some cases, they have developed something themselves. (Which of course gives me greatest pleasure.) But often the answer is "No Sensei, you taught us that", to which I respond, "Are you sure?" or "When was that?"

We have been discussing the need for repetition, but that goes hand-in-hand with the need for good applications. Do you have applications for your kata that you find really useful? If not, please let me know. I have visited Heilman's dojo and am familiar with the way he teaches kata. I might be able to help with some ideas from Pinan Shodan, and Yondan, Naihanchi Shodan and Kusanku. I have some ideas on video that you might find useful.

 

[D.Cobb]

Shuri-Te..

I have noticed through out this thread, your comments in regard to Okinawan Kata, and was wondering, do you look for the pressure point/ kyusho & tuite applications, or just the obvious ones?

I'm not having a dig here, I genuinely want to know.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Anyway, Kenpo is very different from J/O Karate in that the techniques in Kata exist separately as techniques. That is to say that the techniques are taught separately from and usually prior to learning the kata. Each technique has a unique name like Glancing Salute or Delayed Sword. The techniques are practiced with an Uke first slow, and then fast with plenty of contact. They are practiced on both sides and a lot of "what-if" is done enabling the kenpoist to modify the technique as the situation changes.

I must admit that I had forgotten these facts in regard to American Kenpo. So I would like to apologise to OFK for some of my remarks. However having said that, let me say this, my remark re joining a kata oriented school still stands. Also, I believe that the first 4 katas/ forms in your system, short & long 1 & 2, are the ones that will teach the important elements of punching and posture etc.

Which leads to the next question;
What good does it do to learn about "what ifs", if your posture is wrong and you don't know how to strike properly?

I honestly believe, sir, that you should really tear your katas and forms apart. Find every hidden nuance, principle and concept. Ed Parker would not have created these combinations of movement, if they served no purpose. I have discovered so much about my EPAK forms since I started training in Ryukyu Kempo, that I didn't know was there.

All I can really emphasise to you is, don't discount them, without trying a different viewpoint.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Rick Tsubota]

I have been told that you can learn as many kata as you like but keep one special kata that you train intensly on. The other kata may help you to understand things in your special kata.

 

[Shuri-te]

Rick Tsubota said,

I have been told that you can learn as many kata as you like but keep one special kata that you train intensly on. The other kata may help you to understand things in your special kata.

I have read many posts on MT and for me, these words above are by far the most profound.

I would add one small addition. In time, with dedication, one might truly master that special kata. It may take a decade, maybe far longer. After that, one might consider whether it made sense to expand that special repertoire to a second kata.

In fact, most of us, even life long students, will never get to that point for even a single kata, (unless, we pick a very short kata). So for us lesser mortals, the one kata emphasis might well be a lifelong one.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Musashi said: "To know one thing well is to know ten thousand"
Maybe this can apply to kata too.
I know techniques in my favorite kata that can also be seen in other kata. The more you know one kata the more you will understand other kata. The body can only move in certain directions and do certain things so it is limited to what it can produce and endure with technique.

 

[Shuri-te]

D.Cobb said:

Shuri-Te..

I have noticed through out this thread, your comments in regard to Okinawan Kata, and was wondering, do you look for the pressure point/ kyusho & tuite applications, or just the obvious ones?

Dave,

The kata I teach are very similar to those practiced in Shotokan. There are some differences in stances and hand techniques, but I have found, somewhat surprisingly, that a lot of these differences are in kata only. The different approaches can work equally well using the bunkai I practice.

I bring this up because to Shotokan practitioners, whom I train with often, my bunkai looks like Jujutsu with kicks and strikes. All the combinations I practice have takedowns, as I am always inclined to want the big guy on the ground where his advantage in mass is minimized. And I use an abundance of locks to set up counterstrikes to vital targets, as well as set up takedowns. I am a big propenent of teaching chokes and locks to finish. I think that if I were ever attacked, I really wouldn't want to finish with a "killing" strike to someone on the ground. Rather, I would like to lock him up so the big guy can chill out a bit, recognize that further fighting with me might have an unexpected risk, and we can "calmly" discuss what a good idea it would be to go our separate ways after we get up.

I teach an unorthodox approach to kata interpretation. I only use sequential movements of kata. I don't add movements, or use movements from one part of the kata with a different part of the kata. These are excellent approaches, but my way is different.

Let me give you an example. In RyuKyu Kempo, you have Pinan Shodan and Kusanku in your system. In the fourth direction of Pinan Shodan is a combination pretty identical to one in Kusanku. Three shutos followed by a nukite. I use this full "directional sequence" against a variety of striking and grabbing attacks. Against a left strike, I have several variations on my initial setup, and as indicated above, all end with takedowns, and most all use the full 4 sequential movements. Some use the next turn as well.

Against a left strike (lead arm) one combination begins with a left block. The feet begin equidistant from the attacker, and you pivot 90 degrees towards the left, and sink off to the right, getting off the line of attack. The second shuto is done stepping forward for an arm bar, using your left hand to trap the arm. The third shuto is done stepping forward, with your left hand grabbing and circling the opponent's trapped left arm over your right forearm, and continuing that counterclockwise circular motion with a shuto strike to the back of the neck that is now conveniently in your range of maximum power (right in front of your own abdomen). The nukite is used for the takedown, which is one that is common to jujutsu, aikido and several Chinese arts.

Some systems, like Shotokan, and the Okinawa Kenpo kata I have done in Bruce Heilman's dojo, fold the left arm up under the right for the nukite. This folding part is a significant component of the takedown. (Although I have done RyuKyu Kempo kata, I have forgotten whether this left hand under right triceps pattern is maintained.)

Many Okinawan systems have kata where Shutos are done in cat stances. Compared with the Okinawa Kenpo Seisan stance, I believe that cat stance might be more advantageous with the initial block, as you can better shift your mass to your right in cat stance, getting further off the line of attack. Think of the first stance as the opening of Pinan Yondan (attacker directly in front), with the right hand chambered over the abdomen, instead of up high. After that, using the Seisan stances for the follow-up techniques work at least as good, if not better than the cat stances found in other kata.

Let me provide one more general example. For the openings of Pinan Shodan and Yondan, I use several directions against all sorts of attacks. All with takedowns, just by doing the movements in kata.

For striking, in general, my kicks are to the groin, and my strikes to the neck or temple. I like to strike the nose, as it is remarkably effective in setting up other techniques, since it is nearly impossible to regain visibility for at least a second if you receive a good direct strike to the nose. I do have a lot of techniques that strike to the biceps, especially in the bo defense combinations I have.

Please note that I by no means say my approach is the only one. I train in a variety of systems, and have seen lots of good approaches. Some have said that my approach is limiting because I pass up so much by not practicing other approaches. But I have hundreds of combinations, all with takedowns, more than I could ever master, and plenty more than I could ever teach. So I am content with my system of a few kata with lots of bunkai. As I and my students come up with new ideas that conform directly to the movements of kata and end with takedowns, they become part of our repertoire.

Regarding your question of "obvious ones". I know my techniques are not widely practiced in kata bunkai, although the principles are common to many fighting arts. What surprises me is that more people don't see these techniques which to me seem so obvious. So I guess obvious is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[Sauzin]

I have another question. What is the greatest number of kata you have known a Shito-Ryu stylist to practice. How about any Okinawan system stylist? I am wishing to know simply to establish a point of reference (i.e. lowest is 1-3 and highest is...).

I have heard my sensei make reference to Bruce Heilman on a few occasions. It is my understanding that they have met on several occasions.

Some systems, like Shotokan, and the Okinawa Kenpo kata I have done in Bruce Heilman's dojo, fold the left arm up under the right for the nukite. This folding part is a significant component of the takedown. (Although I have done RyuKyu Kempo kata, I have forgotten whether this left hand under right triceps pattern is maintained.)

In Odo's Kusanku Dai as I have been taught it, the left hand parries or folds downward as the nukite shoots out. At the nukite's final extension the right elbow is directly over the first and second knuckle of the left parrying hand. Now depending on which kata your doing (Pinan Shodan or Kusanku Dai) things proceed slightly differently. In Kusanku an 180 degree turn occurs, during this turn the hand does stay underneath the arm untill the last moment as it is clearing infront of the face. So as the turn moves around both arms raise at first still connected, then the left arm clears back as the right simultaneously strikes. The neat thing about this motion is very rarely do people see the strike coming as by the time the block or parry connects the strike is inches from it's target.

Now Pinan Shodan is very similar except that moments before the turn is initiated the left hand is flipped palm up above the right, maintaining contact at the top of the wrist. The turn here is also a 225 degree turn. However this kata also maintains contact of the hand to the arm during the turn, though in a different position.

My sensei was very meticulous when studying with Odo. He would ask him, "Is it done this way? Or is it done this other way?" on every little thing. Odo would not otherwise verbally correct little aspects as his English was not great and he really preferred to show things instead of saying things. Only problem is you were often flying through the air when he would show you, so the "is it this way or that" was a valuable method of getting specifics.

I really like your interpretations of these movements. I have had a difficult time with the throw at the end. Of course I'm not changing angles the way you are. That's something I need to do more. Some movements in kata seem to be far too difficult if you stress keeping everything the exact direction, foot position, and height as the kata. Sometimes tweaking a few things makes it flow much better. After all kata must conform to your situation not the situation to your kata, right?.

Thanks again for your time.

-Paul Holsinger

 

[Shuri-te]

Paul,

It is good to hear your teacher was such a diligent student of Master Odo. You are lucky to have him.

In my description of the technique in Pinan Shodan/Kusanku, I did not describe the takedown, as my post was already so long. I wasn't withholding anything, just waiting for someone to ask. But now that you brought it up….

Let's review where we are prior to the takedown. The attacker has his left foot forward, but is bent over with his left forearm wrapped over your right forearm. The knife hand of your right hand (or just above on the wrist) is wedged tightly on the joint of the elbow, just above it, squeezing the indentation just above the top ulna. The focus of your power in the chamber is on your hand, driving this bend in his elbow in and down. Your hand will be in a different location on your abdomen, depending on the difference in height between you and your attacker, and the depth of your stance. Ideally, your hand is as close to your hara (an inch below your navel) as you can make it, though on tall attackers, it will be higher. Your left hand has just struck the back of his neck. Your left foot is under his head. (There is a trick to making this a more powerful strike and can share it if you would like me to do so on another post.)

You are now ready to begin the throw. First you need to grab his left biceps with your right hand. You need to pull your right hand back approximately four to five inches and let your thumb pop out so now you are grabbing his upper arm with the web of your hand squeezing his lower biceps. As you step forward into nukite, you push your right hand straight forward just like in nukite, but your hand is cupped, pushing the arm.

Your left hand is the most important and you need to drive his head straight down hard. First, slide your hand up the back of his head from his neck, about three to four inches. As you step forward use your left hand to drive down hard, simultaneously pushing your right hand and his arm, up over his head. As you complete the circle, your left hand winds up just under the triceps/elbow on your extended right arm, just like the kata.

Regarding the turn, you don't need to do much. There is a bit of a pivot, but virtually the whole takedown is done stepping forward on the nukite, so the differences between Pinan Shodan and Kusanku are not very important.

Against a big attacker, it works, but is slow. Against an attacker just a little bigger, you can take them down quickly. If the shuto doesn't work, prior to stepping forward for the throw, I recommend kicking them in the nose with your left foot. Recall that in Shotokan (back stance) and most Shorin Ryu (cat stance) the weight is on the back right leg in this stance. So it is no problem to snap up your shin right into the attacker's nose. This is pretty disorienting and could be enough to set up the final throw.

Like every other combination, it needs to be done fast, which is why I recommend at least sometimes, practicing kata combinations as fast as you can. There are several steps in this movement and they all have to be done in rapid succession.

Please let me know if the takedown works for you. As I said, this is common to several Chinese arts and JuJutsu.

Regarding the number of Shito Ryu kata, there are lots of sources regarding which ones are in the ~50. If you go to www.shitoryu.org and from the top bar pick skills then kata, you will see 53 listed. Hayashi's system also practices four of the Ryue Ryu kata since he studied with Nakaima. And many practice lots of kobudo, often from Taira Shinken, but in Hayashi's case, Nakaima's kata as well. I have a number of Shito Ryu colleagues that enjoy collecting kobudo kata just as Mabuni collected empty hand kata. John Sells has published some of his research on http://www.martialsource.com/kobudovideos.htm

Regarding systems that practice a few kata, I can address that in another post on this thread.

You had one more question, an enlightened one: "After all kata must conform to your situation not the situation to your kata, right?" I will start another thread with that thought. Kenwa Mabuni has written almost the exact same words.

I have enjoyed the opportunity to answer your questions and have really valued your feedback. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[arnisador]

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23657

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by chufeng
Karate is not the same as CMA...

Yes, it is...

On the surface the forms are very different, but they are very similar when you look at specific movements and applications within the form.

I don't think I agree with this at all. I think in the generalized, "there are only a set number of body movements" way, all MA are similar. However, I had the opportunity recently to talk with some advancd karate guys (and girl) and we did forms/katas for each other. Even the basic philiosophy and application of moves is very different. Comparing a snake fist or dil sao to a sun punch, it is very different indeed. While both systems contain similar things, they are by no means similar martial arts.

Ok, off my soapbox now....

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Well, Okinawan Karate is modified Southern Chinese Kung Fu, and Japanese Karate is modified Okinawan Karate, so there is a relationship...I think that that's the point. To dismiss it as "there are only a set number of body movements" is way off base. Some forms of Karate are still essentially Kung Fu--Uechi-ryu, for example.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
Well, Okinawan Karate is modified Southern Chinese Kung Fu, and Japanese Karate is modified Okinawan Karate, so there is a relationship...I think that that's the point. To dismiss it as "there are only a set number of body movements" is way off base. Some forms of Karate are still essentially Kung Fu--Uechi-ryu, for example.

Grant it, there are similarities that go beyond my oversimplification, but similarities do not a system make. I mean, there are more similarities between Eagle Claw kung fu and mantis kung fu than there are between these systems of karate and kung fu, and yet they are still extremely different in application, and even philosophy. The snake guys with their snake fists are crazy, horrible to try and defend agasint, yet still very similar to mantis, but extremely different as well.

I think these systems of karate were influenced greatly by kung fu, but have incorporated differing applications, and philosophies to make them a seperate system. The key word being "modified".

JMHO,
7sm

 

[arnisador]

Fair enough. I see it as evolution--which, contrary to popular belief, doesn't mean "better" but rather implies "better suited for a particular time and place". There was mixing with indigenous arts but the kata of Karate are the forms of Southern Chinese Kung Fu, modified both by design and by simply being separated from the original and evolving on their own.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
Fair enough. I see it as evolution--which, contrary to popular belief, doesn't mean "better" but rather implies "better suited for a particular time and place". There was mixing with indigenous arts but the kata of Karate are the forms of Southern Chinese Kung Fu, modified both by design and by simply being separated from the original and evolving on their own.

True, I can agree with that.

7sm

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think time and distance will transform a form (kata) into something a little different and unique. This may be only because the person doing the form is away from their instructor and may have forgotten a move or added one without meaning to or simply done it incorctly for so long its' the only way they know how to do it. When they teach this form to the next generation it is changed forever. Do this a couple of times over a 50 year period of time and it may not even look the same as the original

 

[IMAA]

When thinking of Kata do you look at it as a factor of running it for sport in the perfection sense?

Or when you run Kata do you look at it as an application factor?

To me there are a few different types of people who are Kata people.

1. Someone who runs kata and learns to perfect its movements and make it a crowd pleaser, for Tournament and show. They put alot of different elements within it, extra hard breathing, slower movements, deeper stances, Music, Smoke pyrotechnics, the high flying gymnastic type effects. To me those people are looking at Kata for the mere reason of performance to win over an audience.

2. Someone who looks at kata in an example of fighting "multiple" opponents, each movement is an encounter with a different person/attacker. This person may understand the "TYPICAL" mindset of each technique as taught to them. As an example
From an Front Kick you turn to get in a forward/front stance and execute a typical low block, then step into a forward stance reverse punch. Then your next move your defending yourself against another person. This is another example of Bunkai not always the most realistic in my opinion.

3. Someone who looks at the form/kata from another angle. They see each movement as a technique and breaks it down not quite the exact same way as its ran. But the idea/concepts are the same, they look at and attack areas of the body using Blocks as strikes to certain points of the body to make the opponent less aggressive. This student recognizes each movement or technque in kata as seperate from another. For example
Attacker Grabs there lapel/shoulder, the student grabs the hand in attempt to trap it in place, and turns offsetting the attackers balance, and executes a low block (in theory) but it actually is a wrist lock and attacks a certain point within the body. Then offsets the balance and hits him in another point resulting in a Knock out or a series of attacks. Then looks at each movement thruout the kata as a one on one approach. The more advanced you get you can pick out a double attacker situation.

Now which student is wrong? Which student is right? I think that is up to the student and what he wants to get out of the art he teaches/learns. But its best to be open to all options or at least 2 out of the three.

Finding and understanding Kata is self mastery within your martial art.

 

[Budospirit]

Originally posted by Sauzin
I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it. How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit?

Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.

-Paul Holsinger

I asked the same question to someone on a Kobujutsu course in the UK and his answer was that someone has to preserve the kata in their original form or eventually they will be lost forever if we pick and chose what kata we study. In the system I study (Yuishinkai) there are many kata in both the karate and kobujutsu and tend to focus on the core kata and look at the other as and when I can.. I have to say though especially in the weapons kata particularly the Bo and Sai techniques do have a habit of repeating themselves.

 

[Druss]

A kata in my opinion is like telling a story .....

Not only do u show which style u belong to , u also show what the style is all about and how passionate u are about it . It also should shows wat ur skill level is and wat the art means to u ......

Based on this there should be 1 single kata for your level . ie , one for nidan level , one for shodan level etc

 

[Karazenpo]

I'm a kempo man also but my system is the Hawaiian-derived Shaolin Kempo of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu of Sijo Victor Gascon and it's direct offshoot, Nick Cerio's Kenpo. However, we practice kata much like traditional Okinawan/Japanese. As a matter of fact many of our katas have either been borrowed from with some modification or inspired from traditional karate kata, others are indigneous to our kenpo system. I started training in 1973. Back then, I was totally into building power on the heavy bag, aggressive sparring including what was called then 'full contact karate' and self defense techniques, didn't care for kata that much at all. That has long since changed and I am a firm believer in practicing kata just as the traditions of the Okinawan disciplines do. I feel much can be derived from constant practice. It keeps all your core movements and techniques finely oiled along with the joints which you will all feel as time goes on, lol. Kata provides the basic framework for practicing all technique. It's great solo training and keeps your speed, power, accuracy up while providing excellent physical conditioning. As one gets older all those injuries that were blown off by us when we were younger starts to raise it's ugly head and hard contact and sparring is no longer the emphasis or your body WILL self destruct. I also feel the number of kata practiced in most systems today is complete overkill and repetitive, same with the overkill of techniques. I feel each practitioner should pick a very limited number of kata which they tend to gravitate toward and that would be their personal set. That is your major, that is what you attempt to master. Of all the katas Professor Cerio knew, his specialization was only one kata called Circle of the Tiger of which he created from Karazenpo's first form, with modifications and additions to fit his own perspective. In Hawaii, in the early years of kenpo, all the tough legendary bad *** street fighters of our lineage trained with strong basics and a limited number of techniques which when borrowed upon from the basics would create others. Kata training was added and again, limited. Our mother system, Kajukenbo originally had just 8 forms, since increased to 14. Around 1960, Sijo Gascon taught the original 5 forms of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu which were distilled from Kajukenbo's original sets. They put out some real 'world beaters' back then, both on the street and in tournament competition. I also believe many make fighting too complicated. Generally speaking, human beings have two arms and two legs to attack you with along with the head butt, that's it. There is a finite and very limited number of ways to carry out that attack, the rest are just minor variations. Therefore there is a limited number or responses. Strong, balanced kata backed by strong basics and a limited number or 'core' techniques should cover that. I firmly believe that was an important part of the answer to the question of why these old masters were so damn good! They learned 10 different techniques, 100 different ways then 100 different techniques never really learned. Just my opinion. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras